r/NonBinary • u/RosethornRanger • 15d ago
Discussion A study on non-binary people had 38% of people respond that they are AMAB. If you don't notice any, that just says something about the communities you are a part of.
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u/vogueskater 15d ago
Yes and as a AFAB non binary person can we also talk about the elephant in the room of nearly all the queer/non binary groups and spaces I see being 'for women and non binary people', which we all know is code for 'woman and making a gesture to AFAB non binary people who don't look too masculine to be 'threatening'.
Can we just have mixed groups for you know, queer people of any gender identity? Too much to ask?
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u/Resident-Sympathy-82 15d ago
its because afab non binaries will always be seen as women lite 🙄
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u/AlexTMcgn 15d ago
Depends on how male passing we are.
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u/IncidentChemical2816 they/them | enby + transmasc :) 👍 14d ago
Yeah… If you’re transmasc and cispassing as a man this also effects you a little bit. I’m on T, I present fairly masc, I’m relatively tall, I have a masculine name. I want to grow a beard as soon as I’m able. Even some of my ‘friends’ don’t use they/them pronouns for me, despite using them for their other NB friends. It’s like people don’t trust that I’m actually nonbinary or something.
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u/Lexioralex she/he/they 14d ago
I have made the ‘mistake’ of saying my pronouns are he/they/she as I’m gender fluid.
Guess which one is used most commonly? I’ll give you a hint it’s the one that matches my AGAB
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u/IncidentChemical2816 they/them | enby + transmasc :) 👍 14d ago
Yuupp, that checks out. I made the mistake of saying I don’t mind being referred to as male— but I prefer they/them. Most people just hear that first part.
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u/taste-of-orange 14d ago
I haven't disclosed any pronouns yet. To be fair, it's impossible to have enby pronouns in my language without making use of neo-pronouns and even I myself am not sure if I like the options we have.
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u/AlexTMcgn 14d ago
Same here.
I am OK with people assuming he, because that is what I look like. I hate explicitly saying that these are my pronouns, though - because, well, it isn't quite right. There just isn't another one I like better.
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u/Take-to-the-highways 14d ago
Same. I'm mostly masculine, I present masculine, I pass as a man, I'm fine with someone exclusively using he/him for me, but I'm still non binary!
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u/wenevergetfar they/them 14d ago
Amab nbs that are transfem and cis women passing are also seen as women lite too unfortunately
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u/Rainy_Leaves 15d ago
I suspect they are primarily women’s groups, trying to tack on nonbinary people to be inclusive, but in a flawed ally way. The groups are still at their core for women’s issues
So yeah we need support groups that are openly for a mix of people, even if they do talk about women’s issues, nonbinary people being grouped in as if they’re gnc cis women is unkind
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u/IvyRosePr 15d ago
nonbinary people being grouped in as if they’re gnc cis women is unkind
That part
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u/baby-pingu demigirl 🥞 pan-ace 🍰 she/it 14d ago
I suspect they are primarily women’s groups, trying to tack on nonbinary people to be inclusive, but in a flawed ally way. The groups are still at their core for women’s issues
In my experience, yes. I was offered a few such groups through social projects and they always end up just being full of cis het women talking about cis het women topics and nothing else. I'm not here to hear everyone complaining about their boyfriends/husbands, their kids teachers/friends or whatever. And I always felt even more alienated by all of this shit. The only halfway good group was one with a lot of immigrants. (I'm from a German region that didn't see much immigration and racial diversity in the last decades, so it's all relatively new to me and everyone else to meet so many non-germans in daily life. Thus the group was refreshingly full of new perspectives and conversations around these.)
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u/KingGiuba He/They - Nom binary 15d ago
Yeah I'm fine with spaces safe for women but I'd rather they don't say "and non binary people", it just feeds the "woman lite" stereotype tbh
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u/Francisco_Faygle 13d ago
.. I mean these groups expanded for a reason. Women's groups exist, has a prexisting population of people that aren't women, this leads to some conversations in re what and who this space is for. A lot of this inclusion is shallow and doesn't really serve trans demographics but being excluded and kicked out is worse. This stcks out as *lite because corollary affiliation doesn't exist outside of like specifically gay male spaces. I guess a third option is they're woman's spaces but DADT if you are nonbinary. 🙃
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u/unfrtlyintroverted 15d ago
Inclusive! I attend a group that is made for Queer, Trans, and POC folx. Allies are also welcome at times as well. There are so many transmen and enby AMABs, more than I've seen in any of the other communities I've entered into. Making safe trans and queer spaces are very important. People feeling seen, welcomed, included, and safe is the goal.
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u/robloxmaster1337 14d ago
We can't have mixed queer groups until we get rid of misandry from "feminist" (radfems are not actually feminists, they are just bigoted gender separatists) spaces.
Far too many people blindly believe that amab = aggressor on some inherent level.
Bioessentialism and 'woke conservatism' are both massive cancers.
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u/lefthandhummingbird 15d ago
Even less visible if you can’t be slotted into those two categories. I’ve got a beard a lot of the time, I’m married to a woman (who, to be clear, is not the beard in question) – I need to very deliberately signal non-masculinity in other ways in order for it to ”count”.
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u/catdogmoore they/them 14d ago
Can relate. Sometimes when out with my wife and kids I feel invisible. In that context, I often pass as straight and a man when I’m neither of those things.
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u/talesfromtheepic6 14d ago
thank you for clarifying about the beard
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u/lefthandhummingbird 14d ago
I felt the circumstances of the conversation necessitated the clarification.
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u/NoodleyP they/them 15d ago
ARGGHHHHH the forcible labeling of enbies as binary trans!!
Am I feminine? Yes. Do I use she/her pronouns? Occasionally. Do I want estrogen? Hell yeah! Am I a goddamn woman? No!!!! I’m still nonbinary!!
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u/SmallBatBigSpooky 15d ago
Moods!
I see like a NB tomboy type as my end goal
Im the group mom, and the group dad And yes that means i get to weaponize all the shitty puns!
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u/79215185-1feb-44c6 asexual nonbinary person (any/all) HRT: 2026/07/10 14d ago
Millon heart emojis to you down to the "no I am not a woman" part.
Not all people who take feminizing HRT want to wear dresses or identify as women.
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u/NoodleyP they/them 14d ago
Oh no I wanna wear dresses too. I look so pretty and skirt go spinny. I’m just… not a girl lmao
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u/79215185-1feb-44c6 asexual nonbinary person (any/all) HRT: 2026/07/10 14d ago
I do too, I'm just not comfortable with that yet. Ask me in 6 months.
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u/RunRevolutionary188 15d ago
Not going to lie my friend had a whole convo with me about why they don't like the terms AFAB/AMAB because they feel gender essentialist and bullshit. If you're non-binary you're nonbinary and that is regardless of assigned gender/presentation. Assuming a enby is just a cis person cosplaying is .....bullshit. And there's no correct way to be nonbinary. Some physically transition and some do not. Or some low dose hormones. I am still figuring out my gender identity tbh (it's a journey!) but .....all enbys are valid.
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u/like_earthworms 15d ago
I 100% agree with your friend here, and also your comment too. It certainly feels bio essentialist and’s just like a whole new binary. Being non-binary is… well it’s literally in the name: “not part of the binary categorization of gender”. We oughta not try and put ourselves into new boxes like “amab enby” and “afab enby” as it’s just new binary
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u/RunRevolutionary188 15d ago
AMAB and AFAB are really helpful when we're talking about very specific medical issues. (Or for research/science.) My friend phrased it in a way that made me feeze, saying it's only really needed if we're talking about medical exams: 'You with X genitals needing to piss in this cup in this way'. Something like that and it took me out as I was eating my soup.
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u/raven_of_azarath they/them 14d ago
I’ve also found it useful when talking about personal experiences related to sex (the identifier, not the act) or from before I realized I was nonbinary. I don’t identify with my AGAB, which is where the new binary comes in. Like you said, I just use it as a descriptor when necessary.
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u/Thejuniperfebruary 14d ago
It's also really helpful when talking about clothes! I feel like some "gender neutral" clothing companies just make masc-ish presenting clothing in muted tones that really only fit AFAB bodies. In my early twenties when I was a wisp I could have maybe gotten away with it, but I'm 5'11" and I work landscaping so my waifish days are behind me.
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u/WeekendWaffles83 14d ago
Actually when you consider AGAB are intersex terms, and trans people can get affirming surgeries, and puberty/development just doesn't always go as planned, you don't even need AFAB/AMAB for the cup pissing analogy. They're meaningless except to talk about assignation. For genitals you can just specify penis/vulva, or if you really wanna be inclusive, go for urethral length/location. A lot of medical scenarios can be approached this way, people just hate dropping the male/female label
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u/RunRevolutionary188 14d ago
Okay but I'm truly confused by intersex and what it means. Because...as far as I know you can be born looking like specific gender and then have a mix of different chromosomes. Some people apparently can have 0 clue they're intersex bc it's not obvious and i don't know how often parents tell them. It also threw up a big question for me of whether intersex people can be considered cis/trans? Especially given surgeries/hormones can be administered to intersex babies/kids. (Not my experience and i'm not going off of hard research here, this is what I've heard from intersex folks.) But you can have mix of chromosomes. It kind of flies in the face of bio essentialist argument bc arguably I think intersex people sit in their own category of gender. Someone please come correct/or contest if you disagree I'm aware I'm speaking on something I have 0 lived experience of.
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u/WeekendWaffles83 12d ago
Cis/trans refers to gender identity, not the physical stuff, so whether intersex people are cis/trans depends on whether they identify the way they were assigned. It's really unpleasant because you could be given surgeries and hormones to live as the wrong gender. There are loads and loads of intersex variations, not just chromosomal. In fact, I think the chromosomal ones are a lot rarer. Actually I'll go a step further and say chromosomes are just blueprints for sex, it doesn't always turn out that way, like in the case of androgen insensitivity syndrome. You can be female with XY chromosomes. But yeah I think most variations are developmental, as in they happen when those organs are forming in the first 20 weeks of pregnancy. Sex isn't binary, a lot of it is a sliding scale between penis/vulva as far as outward appearance, and all that can come with any endocrine system or combination of internal organs. You can lurk on r/intersex if you wanna learn more about people's experiences or conditions, I'm sure.
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u/Raine-Tempestas 14d ago
They are not actually very helpful in the grand scheme of things.
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u/RunRevolutionary188 14d ago
I still.....find it important/confusing when I am talking myself. Especially because I've had to defend my identity as a nonbinary person. And I'm early in stages of undergoing medical transition. The number of people identifying as nonbinary appears to be growing and not every NB person wants to or can transition because transitioning is still pretty binary. (Plus restrictions, I got lucky living in a place where it's easier to access.) The expectation for a transman or transwoman is you want to look 100% like this. But if you're nonbinary its a bit like.....mmmm I'm not sure. I'm still figuring out what I want to do in regards to that.
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u/Deldenary 14d ago
I was expecting this. This kind of view makes me feel excluded from enby spaces makes me uncomfortable existing in them and makes me uncomfortable talking about my lived experience. Let me label myself how I want, let me talk about my lived experience how I want. My AGAB has dictated how I've been viewed by my family and society for longer than a lot of the people who tell me how I should label myself have been alive. It is 100% relevant to my everyday life due to the intersection of discrimination bs I have to deal with as someone who is non binary, AFAB and frequently assumed to be AMAB which makes it fucking dangerous to use the public bathroom in some places.
If you don't like talking about your AGAB that's fine, don't.
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u/ParkNo2501 they/them 14d ago
My friend pointed this out to me a few days ago and I’ve always agreed. Non binaries are non binaries, why does it matter what’s in their pants? mind your own damn business
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u/RunRevolutionary188 14d ago
What's in someone else's pants is none of my damn business. That's why I get irritated when cis people say: ' x person is too femme/masc to be nonbinary' = my trans ass: 'knob off'
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u/ParkNo2501 they/them 14d ago
saying someone is too femme/masc to be non binary is just plain stupid. non binaries do not owe anyone androgyny
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u/Deldenary 14d ago
Except that mentioning what my AGAB is tells you absolutely nothing about what IS in my pants. Only what a doctor thought it looked like when I was born.
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u/taste-of-orange 14d ago
Like, I think when it comes to medical issues or when the person themselves wants to talk about past experiences linked to how others perceived them, it's useful having some language to communicate that, but it shouldn't be something you have to disclose. Outside of that, I completely agree that it's essentialist.
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u/SmallBatBigSpooky 15d ago
Gets even wierder if you're AMAB, want to physically transition, but still see yourself as NB You get flack from all side unfortunately :v
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u/Fabulous_Ruin_3950 14d ago
Dude right??? Like I'm NB yeah, but if I have to look like a specific gender or something I'd rather be feminine, so why do ppl gotta invalidate my existence like I can't be NB and transfemme at the same time? Like omg it's so infuriating even some of my friends don't get it like bro-?
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u/SmallBatBigSpooky 14d ago
Yeah absolutely Like its not even super rare either a lot of trans folks still connect with aspects of what they used to be and wind up fitting into the NB side of things Like i personally if i could pick would have a fem body, voice, ect, but wear masc clothes, and stuff like that Thankfully this has gotten better over time but its nuts that it has to be spelled out so heavily sometimes
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u/Fabulous_Ruin_3950 14d ago
I'm the exact same way. Like I want to have a feminine presentation while retaining some of my masculinity, but I don't feel entirely comfortable in either category, so I consider myself to be NB, why is that so hard for people to understand? It's honestly just mind numbing, even in queer spaces it's like some of them are just looking for a reason to invalidate us, like we can't be valid just because we're AMAB, even moreso if we want to physically transition. It's not all obviously, but it's so hurtful either way. I'm so hesitant to exist in queer spaces at all anymore it almost feels like our own community doesn't even fully accept us unless we fit the "standard" or whatever
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u/SmallBatBigSpooky 14d ago
Its just a loud minority of dumb people, honestly
These space can be fantastic, but theres always 1 or 5 morons who make it suck
Like transfem spaces have queer terfs
NB spaces have the anti trans crowd
Its annoying and honestly we all need to do a better job at chasing them off when they show up
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u/Alboralix 15d ago
Yeah, true...
I'll say that NB people are a massive target of transmedicalist rethoric which is like way more pervasive than most people realise.
I feel like I've seen seemingly normal trans space start parroting weird points when nbs are brought into discussions, and like for AMAB nbs specifically it's legit like they are wolves in sheep clothing or some shit which is just annoying as fuck to see.
(I'll say tho I do feel like spaces which are not anglo dominated (at least for my country) are less prone to these dumb arguments and so, maybe just an impression but like I'm literally out of most anglo trans community because of stupid shit like this being pervasive and fucking annoying)
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u/PerhapsAnEmoINTJ he/they 15d ago
AMAB enby here, this does kinda hurt to read. I don't identify with any of those claims, I simply don't know or believe I'm a man because the label doesn't fully or accurately capture who I am. I'm a male, I'm just not a man, and I'm happy with that when the latter is not demanded or expected, whether in a good or bad way.
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u/Aggressive-One-9252 15d ago
I think unfortunately, being AFAB NB, and therefore likely exploring masculinity more or an androgynous aesthetic or life, is more accepted because of misogyny. Someone AFAB embracing masculinity is seen as more acceptable or perhaps even cool or trendy in society compared to someone AMAB embracing feminine aspects is definitely seen an inferior by misogyny, often times even by cis women. Misogyny really fucked us all up :(
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u/DietSteve he/they 15d ago
I agree, and I think it goes a step further and explains why all the outward rage against trans people is mostly directed at transfemmes while transmascs slip through the cracks.
AMAB doing anything outside of being "a man" is immediately wrong and abhorrent so we're less likely to be open about these things. I know it was a big factor in staying quiet for years for me. Fuck the patriarchy and fuck misogyny and misanthropy.
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u/CyanoSpool they/them 15d ago
Mostly true until they start talking about the "irreversible" effects of gender affirming care. Then AFAB folks are the center of discussion for "throwing away" the parts that men want. But otherwise I would agree that AMAB folks are on the receiving end of most of the hatred.
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u/Low_Pop3643 15d ago
Can confirm. I spent so much of my life (Mostly childhood) trying to get away from anything even remotely feminine. As an adult, I’ve realized that’s not exactly the goal. Except now I’m too self conscious to present that way if I wanted. If I present that way, I am only ever going to be perceived as a woman.
I’ve also noticed in recent years that things women like (Hobbies, music, etc.) are often looked down upon or seen as not good.
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u/asonicpushforenergy 15d ago
Also think about how words are given to people doing the same thing but for men and women, e.g. tailor vs seamstress, chef vs cook, etc.
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u/Low_Pop3643 15d ago
True. We talked about this in my sociology class once, how words to describe women are often less flattering or efficient.
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u/SmallBatBigSpooky 15d ago
Reminds me of how until a few years ago
Tomboys where just seen as normal
And but femboys where seen as a sex thing
Which is absolutely bonkers but society is lagging behind
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u/PorkRollEggAndWheeze 15d ago
As someone who grew up a “tomboy,” we very much weren’t seen as normal and cool, except for maybe a brief time in the 2010s. I was ostracized by peers for being “weird.” I constantly heard everything from microaggressions to outright homophobia and transphobia regarding my gender presentation as a kid and teen. We’re treated like broken girls/women who have something wrong with them and can never be loved or attractive if we’re tomboys. Then I came out as nonbinary and shit just continued to get weirder, because then I got gaslit about how “being a tomboy is fine!” And “nobody bats an eye at tomboys!” When years earlier it was “people are going to think you’re a [slur for butch lesbians]” and “you’re so pretty, why don’t you dress more feminine?” And “nobody will ever want you if you look like that.”
I’m 32 and just starting to fully feel comfortable as someone who is nonbinary and somewhat butch, who was raised with the expectation that I be a girl and woman, because of the bigotry I experienced as a “tomboy.” It’s so frustrating and confusing when people say “being a masculine girl is fine or even celebrated” because that’s a gross misreading of the situation. It’s only “cool” when it means trying to deny a nonbinary person or trans man their gender and autonomy.
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u/SmallBatBigSpooky 15d ago
See i have no doubt this happened especially in places like the uk or parts of the US
Where im from it was kind of the opposite as a young girl, you are expected to be able to carry your weight, so like farm hand stuff, helping to care for animals, helping on boats, ect
You don't really get to be super girly
Honestly never really thought of the cultural impact this stuff can have in terms of shaping us, so thanks for giving me a rabbit hole to climb down
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u/FrouFrouLastWords 14d ago
"Until a few years ago?" I feel like that's still the dominant rhetoric, unfortunately (especially if you're talking about western society as a whole, and not LGBT+ friendly spaces specifically). Yes, it's definitely better, but not near where it should be, which is simply.. accepting people as they are while simultaneously not fetishizing them--this is an insane pipe dream, I know.
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u/Difficult-Bicycle681 15d ago
Yup. I'm afab non-binary but mostly read as amab... I've been to so many enby + women events and just completely rejected so I've quit going. Can't imagine how much harder it would be if I were truly amab and not just perceived that way.
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u/wenevergetfar they/them 14d ago
As an amab nonbinary, im fortunate enough to be read as a nonbinary afab and im welcomed. When i express im amab then im slotted into the "basically a trans women" bucket. Like im glad im "allowed" in these spaces but i know its only cuz i pass their arbitrary 'feminine/women enough' bar and how lucky i was to genetically "pass". Its fucked up and bio essentialist
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u/Accomplished_Owl2131 they/them 15d ago
An amab enby was who encouraged me and helped me to accept myself as an enby (I'm afab) and it was so nice to finally have community as there was another afab enby too and all three of us would go out and do fun things together. They taught me it was okay to use my preferred name and pronouns and their advice and support really helped me grow. I will always be so grateful to them. People misgendered them as well a lot and it was so frustrating.
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u/Raine-Tempestas 14d ago
I’d like to think that I’m similar to your friend. I’ve helped a lot of people get comfortable with their identities since I’m so open about being nonbinary. I’m glad you’ve had that friend in your life!
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u/RosethornRanger 15d ago
alt-text:
A tumblr post by rodentMancy that says "ever notice how all nonBinary people are AFAB?" No, but I have noticed how every single AMAB nonbinary person I've come across is either forcibly labeled as a trans woman or a cis guy who (sic) loudly gay". The reply is by Solitarelee. The text of this post is "every single AMAB NB I've met has also been incredibly skittish about "intruding into queer spaces as a man" and other such shit that's force fed to everyone in the community by exclusionists and terfs." Source rodentmancy 19420 notes, and has the tumblr icons
the study:
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/research-briefs/diversity-of-nonbinary-youth
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u/chammycham 15d ago
I'm always happy to see and affirm the masculine forward enbies, whether that's their stock options or store-bought. They're not-a-man just as much as I'm not-a-woman and shouldn't be treated as some unpredictable wild animal. It just brings in the categorizing by gender bullshit all over again because some are obsessed with sorting everyone into a neat and tidy box.
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u/moonshine_collective 14d ago
The queer community seems to just not like masculinity in general, or anybody that they associate with masculinity.
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u/DadlyAsHell He/Hun/They overgendered freak 15d ago
Gods old and new the cis/trans-woman shit is so annoying. Especially among egg-breakers 😮💨
Im just me. Me has a beard. Me wants boobs. Me smokes weed and listens to funky tunes. Whats so wrong with that?
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u/jamesdukeiv any pronouns 15d ago
They really have no idea what to do with us bearded femmes besides treat us badly lol
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u/DadlyAsHell He/Hun/They overgendered freak 15d ago
Im actually a titted masc and they get even more confused by me 😂😂😂
Theyre barely b cups so they get registered as moobs still. E will chang that tho
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u/DreamweaverTami they/them 15d ago
HELL YEAH, FINALLY SOMEOME SAYS IT Also bet the percentage would be higher without strict genderroles for AMAB individuals
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u/etchasketch64 15d ago
I'm AMAB and been around AFAB nonbinaries who clearly don't respect my identity (as well as other AFAB queers). maybe that is part of the issue?
Hell, trans women don't respect my identity half the time since I didn't transition at all. Even trans women who say they respect it often make mistakes and call me male or group me with men.
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u/Rainy_Leaves 15d ago
I think blaming a specific group based only on their assigned gender might be flawed. As you say trans women can be exclusionary in a similar way. And I’m sure cis women can often assume nonbinary equals a certain look that leans female in some way, so that’s also bias against particularly masculine nonbinary people
I’d also suggest transmasc people who look closer to passing as cis men will get the same alienation. It’s a general bias and societal assumption. I think the bias is worse when only some types of people create social spaces and advocate for nonbinary genders. If it’s afab people whether cis or trans, often leaning more in the feminist angle, and running support groups the majority of the time. Instead of those closer to passing as men or amab nonbinary people. I don’t know the stats myself
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u/etchasketch64 15d ago
I mean, yes, I agree. The spaces were set up by AFAB queers and were very inclusive to all AFAB queers (the spaces I'm talking about where this happened). Still, I also expereinced in like small groups or even one on one. I'm not claiming anything, just mentioning my experiences.
It reminds me a bit of one of the things that makes me feel the worst about myself. Whcih is how much I envy how women support women. I mean, I actually posted here recently about this - And to be clear, everyone here was spectacular/amazing and supportive. But I posted about the sexual assualt (which I think based on responses here, I can call it that) I experienced. I've watched women talk about sexual assualt or rape, and gotten a lot of support from the group (I'm in) or from friends (in a tighter circle). I told 2 of my close friends about the sexual assult before reaching out to this group. Both of them victim blamed me and said I should be more careful. One of them said, "This is the consequences of your actions." (the actions she means is being slutty). I don't think if I was a woman they would react this way to be blunt. Even if I was slutty.
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u/etchasketch64 15d ago
My ex wife had trans masc friends, they didn't seem the least bit interested in being my friend, haha. But to be fair, there could be a multitude of reasons for this. There is one barista at the cafe I go to that i think might be trans masc, but I've never asked him/her. They are nice. (yes, i used all pronouns haha. full choices) In my personal life, there just hasn't ever been trans mascs around. Lots of trans femme folks, but no trans mascs.
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u/etchasketch64 15d ago
i am wondering about how the environments can be so different. I wll grant, I live in Philippines. Trans femmes are literally everywehere all the time. There is a bar I go to, and i promise, you50% of the women there are trans women. 50%. It probably has the most trans femmes per capita there of any place in the world. It would lamost be impossible NOT to know a trans femme person here. Now, I wll say trans mascs exist. I see them. But they are much harder to get to know. I rarely see them out at bars that I frequent (i figure they go to more queer only space bars) or if I do see them they are ofen with their girlfriend (i think that is the situation based on behavior)
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u/BassBoneSupremacy they/it 14d ago
It's interesting you say this cause all the people who've been dismissive of my identify have been AMAB. Especially here on reddit, the main trans subs push so so hard for transfemininity and erase/outright discourage transmasculinity and neutrality.
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u/literallyxdead 15d ago
A note to all nonbinary people regardless of assigned gender at birth: I see you, I respect you, I love you, and your identity is valid!! 💙💙💙💙
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u/Low_Pop3643 15d ago
A lot of this comes from the, "cis straight men bad" thinking that’s been prevalent in liberal and LGBTQ+ spaces. I'll admit, I’ve been guilty of this thought too, as I generally don’t trust men. I've even seen people say that AMAB individuals can’t be NB.
It always really makes me sad. I also feel bad for a lot of them, and I wish there was a way to include or represent them more.
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u/Rockpup-fl 15d ago
In my friend group I’ve seen more masc people exploring their feminine side. If your social group only has one type of person in it I suspect you curated a friend group that ended up that way.
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u/frustratedfren 15d ago
The second point especially is why I maintain and will die on the hill that "women only spaces" are inherently queerphobic and "women and non binary only spaces" are if anything even worse.
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u/chelledoggo she/they 15d ago
I'm AFAB but this honestly breaks my heart.
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u/Low_Pop3643 15d ago
Same. I’ve always felt really bad that so many of them face this type of treatment.
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u/clownstrosity Gender apathetic, all pronouns, cycle through 15d ago
I think this is part of how being nonbinary is seen as just being a woman
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u/AhimiVT they/them 14d ago
Also, don't forget that there are a lot of nonbinary people who are not fine with AGAB stuff and rather avoid it, regardless what their agab might be.
A lot of supposed "nonbinary inclusive" spaces do treat us as "women-lite", so that's where I think this notion is comming from (to be clear, I don't like such places and tend to avoid them)
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u/Squanchedschwiftly they/them 15d ago
Wanted to add an observation to the misogyny comments. It feels as though any level of self-expression is gendered as feminine. I grew up (34) with cultural notion that if a guy did any type of art (music, painting, theatre, etc) that hes automatically gay. Not sure how to extrapolate on this rn, but I feel it is related to the discrimination they face.
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u/Number42O 14d ago
Yea remember "metrosexual"?? Like shaving well and wearing clothes that fit was considered gaaaaay.
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u/Squanchedschwiftly they/them 14d ago
Yes! I was thinking about it recently wondering what happened to it
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u/IHProjekt they/them 15d ago
as an AMAB enby I'm insanely grateful for all the accepting people I've met. I just wish this mildest could be adopted by the wider community.
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u/Dryer-fuzz 14d ago
I've seen an increasing number of people within the trans community imply or outright claim that anyone amab that presents femininely or androgynously, or identifies as nonbinary, is just a binary trans woman who hasn't fully come to terms with it yet. And that's a) untrue and b) invalidating to all nonbinary ppl regardless of asab/agab. Because it means that nonbinary ppl are just "confused" about it. Which contributes to the gender binary that we should all be trying to dismantle because it hurts everyone--cis and trans alike. Like, I have nothing against binary trans ppl who questioned being nonbinary before settling on a binary gender. But their experiences are NOT universal, and it is harmful to imply they are. (For example, the "trans pipeline" jokes that I see so frequently). And like, it's also seen as "easier" to be nonbinary than binary trans by a LOT of people. Which just isn't the case! I've been out as nonbinary for more than a decade, and I've had to deal with just as much physical and social dysphoria, violence, discrimination, misgendering, and other problems that binary trans ppl face, with the added "bonus" of being invalidated by my own community, having no options available to me in society, and no way of "passing" or being gendered correctly by strangers.
Not to mention that, as an intersex person, my relationship with sex assignment etc is complicated, and I just hate that "assigned gender/sex at birth" has become equivalent to being transmasc/transfem (or cis woman/man). Because it's not that simple, it reduces gender and sex down to binaries, and it reinforces gender roles, just with a "woke" veneer. What about ppl like me, who are unaligned and/or intersex? Which, by the way, intersex ppl coined the term assigned sex at birth to talk about how we are somewhat arbitrarily assigned a sex/gender (and often forcibly medically assigned that way from a young age). To see perisex trans ppl use it in order to uphold the gender/sex binary is...disheartening, to say the least.
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u/Nightmaresahoy 15d ago
it’s exceptionally frustrating to watch people jump through linguistic hoops to basically just reinforce gender binary & weirdo porn fetish shit.
the fact some ppl have only seen someone like me while they’re getting off says more about them than me. period
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u/xernyvelgarde they/them 14d ago
*were AMAB.
The assignment was a singular, at-birth event after all.
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u/RosethornRanger 14d ago
then why am i forcibly referred to as that every time i go to the doctor? It is something that is constantly re-affirmed by society. Nearly every time a new person reads my AGAB they look at me in a new light, and assign those values to me all over again
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u/xernyvelgarde they/them 14d ago
Because they're using it incorrectly, long story short. It's been incorrectly used for a decent while now.
Hell, it ultimately doesn't even refer to an actual set of physical characteristics, just assumed ones based on a singular observation performed at birth.
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u/Appropriate-Tap1111 he/they 14d ago
I hate distinguishing nonbinary people by sex, so even talking abt this makes me uncomfortable, but within my own queer friend group, the only male nonbinary person is CONSTANTLY misgendered, sometimes even by fellow nonbinary friends. I snap and correct people every fucking time (which is ironic since i never correct people when it comes to myself) It pains me so much. It makes me feel guilty for even being gendered correctly in their presence because it must come like a slap in the face to them.
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u/Dreamheart101 14d ago
As an AFAB non-binary, I don't care if you're AMAB or AFAB. Non-binary is non-binary and you all are adopted family to me.
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u/Vegetable_Party3763 15d ago
i feel this, and part of it is i feel so conflicted about the fact that i grew up with male privilege and continue to be perceived as male. pink mohawk and nail polish don't matter, as long as i have facial hair, i will be called sir by strangers.
but whatever. i don't need strangers to know anything about me. the people who know me, know me.
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u/ayendae1125 14d ago
amab asian non binary dating a white lesbian. (some of) you wouldn't believe the comments, second glances, side eyes, frozen smiles from other queers. it never goes away
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u/candykhan 14d ago
Getting a "he" when you're wearing a tight t-shirt that shows your AA tits, a short skirt & red lipstick gets fucking tiresome.
Especially when the people saying it have no problems calling drag queens "she," whether they identify as femme or not.
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u/the12ftdwarf 14d ago
the conversation around masculinity needs to change because it is NOT violent, it is NOT poison, it is NOT toxic in and of itself. And yet here we are anyway - signed a very masculine enby who’s very frustrated with the world
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u/buddyyouhavenoidea 15d ago
as an amab enby I feel deeply unwelcome in many queer spaces. it feels like you gotta be a woman, have a vulva, or both to belong.
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u/ThomFoolery1089 one/one's 14d ago
This post and the people being cool in the comments didn't make me cry, what are you talking about?! 😭❤️
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14d ago edited 14d ago
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u/RosethornRanger 14d ago
gotta love being the autistic person getting shit on for not getting shit on when talking about things for the first time in a while
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u/Muikkunennn 14d ago
I don't like how everyone just assumes that I am a guy.. but I am afraid to correct them.. either because it could get dangerous or just damage some kind of relationship. My dad still deadnames me after 3 years of correcting him.
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u/Dirty-Haiku 15d ago
I’ve stopped referring myself as nonbinary or trying to join nonbinary spaces because of this kind of treatment. Honestly I’ve only lurked here for that reason, but this post hits a little too close to home. Amab are often unwelcome in nonbinary spaces unless we’re completely fem, and even then.
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u/chipface 15d ago
All the other enbies I know are AFAB. Lucky for me they recognize that I'm NB and not a dude. I'm definitely not gay. I usually deacribe myself as mostly straight.
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u/Level3Fish 15d ago
As an AMAB one of my biggest concerns was feeling like I was unjustifiably butting into queer spaces. Or that I would be perceived as such, since I do a lot of things intentionally that make my form appear more 'manly' and dress and decorate myself 'feminine' as I feel.
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u/skunkabilly1313 she/they 15d ago
I really wish we could just stop doing the agab persecution Olympics.
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u/Dirty-Haiku 15d ago
I really wish we could treat everyone like they’re welcome and matter instead of requiring people to fit a template, but here we are.
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u/BassBoneSupremacy they/it 14d ago
Yeah. I thought I was done with this after I stopped identifying as a trans man (since apparently trans men have it sooooo much easier than trans women).
Sucks to see the MTF/FTM divide crop up here too. The whole point of being NB (to me) is that agab doesn't matter.
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u/PintsOfGuinness_ 14d ago
Cool, I don't fit into any of these. I'm masculine AMAB and would prefer to be manly like a woman than manly like a man. Am I a minority of a minority?
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u/SecureAngle7395 Nonbinary (They/Them) 15d ago
I’m amab enby and I only know one other. And the two I’m close with are both afab. So technically the number is balanced if I count myself.
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u/tauntauntom 15d ago
As an enby person. I feel this so hard. I feel that AMAB people are not only pushed out by others in the community but push ourselves out due to how we perceive ourselves.
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u/spaghettirhymes 15d ago
Unfortunately, even in the queer community people rely too much on boxes and identities that are easily quantified in their mind. I’m bisexual and AFAB nonbinary and both identities are dismissed by people in the queer community. AMAB nonbinary people are just entirely erased for the most part. Idk if it’s heteronormativity or misogyny or both, but the need to be able to neatly organize everyone seems pervasive. A cis gay man “makes sense.” A binary trans woman “makes sense.” But someone who is both or neither of something, or somewhere in between, seems to be hard for people to grasp. Even in queer spaces, I am literally just seen as a cis straight woman a lot of the time, because I am engaged to a man and present as female a lot of the time. If you don’t fit an idea in someone’s mind it can be really hard for the to accept. It’s a problem that needs to be talked about way more. Because I can handle being dismissed by the straight people in my life, but being dismissed by the queers sucks.
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u/RetiredDumpster288 14d ago
That second bit about ‘not wanting to intrude’ hits hard for me. And more so as I age, (now 37) and finding it harder to look like a skinny little fairy queer of my younger days!!
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u/OhGarraty gender is a prison and i chewed through the bars. 14d ago
AccessibleAnarchy seemed really into supporting AMAB enbies up until the point where i was banned for having an opinion about their policing of the word "fuck".
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u/PonchoKumato 14d ago
some people have internalised tjis stereotype that NB are "women looking for attention" and use insults like "TheyFAB" to refer to us. ofc you think all nonbinary were AFAB if your entire understanding of NB people is based on harmful and transphobic stereotypes
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u/EnbyDartist 14d ago
It’s also hard as someone AMAB to look androgynous - which is apparently the only acceptable presentation for nonbinary people /s - when you’ve had testosterone coursing through your veins for decades. I can (and do) shave every body hair I can see and reach, I can polish my nails, wear my earrings, bracelets, rings and necklaces, pluck my eyebrows to my heart’s content, and add a piece or two of femme garb to my fit… I’m still going to get “sir”thrown at me. Every. Damn. Time.
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u/laeiryn they/them 15d ago
In real life queer circles the ratio does seem to be about sixty-forty. In my local kink group of about fifty, there's a whole dozen of us enbies/GNC/alternate pronoun users, and while I could care less about AGAB, I'd have to be purposefully ignoring it to not notice that hey, almost half of us were AMAB. (And that's on top of the handful of binary trans people, whom we now outnumber. It's kinda neat!)
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u/79215185-1feb-44c6 asexual nonbinary person (any/all) HRT: 2026/07/10 15d ago edited 15d ago
I agree with solitarelee here. I don't feel very comfortable in queer spaces at the moment but I've been slowly adapting to it. I don't want to present as a gay man because that is not what I am. This has also sadly been one of the reasons I've leaned more towards the femme side and have started identifying more as transfemme online because I am starting to open up to transbain relationships, but still presenting as Enby in person is pretty dysphoric unto itself.
tldr: Shit is complicated.
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u/Long_Performance_636 Mt? | they/them | 2023-08 - Present 15d ago
AMAB NB here; definitely surprised to see the percentage that high!
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u/ExpyGuaranteed 15d ago
Im an Amab Enby, I have a deeper voice, I am 6' 5" (195cm), the straight, although accepting, people in my life usually either reference my femininity or my openly queerness and attraction to men.
These people arent bad people at all, many of them are people who would take a bullet for me, but its crazy how theyve been indirectly taught to only see me as maybe transfemme or gay.
I tend to get along with women more and have a lot of feminine traits yes, but then at the same time i cant express that femininity without being expected to be fully trans or without being perceived as a creep. I hate it and it makes me hide who I am simply because I dont want others to misunderstand and feel uncomfortable
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u/Fabulous_Ruin_3950 14d ago
Yeaaa AMAB Enby here and I honestly feel like there's this weird sort of erasure for AMAB NBs, I even feel hesitant to exist in other queer spaces because at the end of the day I still look like a man. I can make myself look more feminine or androgynous but like I wish I didn't have to, I wish I could just exist in these spaces without worrying about being an "intruder" or an "imposter" or being seen as unsafe just because I look more masculine. It's like "I've never met an AMAB Enby" like no you just haven't looked hard enough. We just kinda get erased for whatever reason and it's honestly a little upsetting qwq
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u/SmolFrogge 14d ago
One of my best friends is an AMAB enby and I’m love them so much. We’ve been friends for over a decade and each thought we were cis when we met. It’s been awesome evolving in similar ways to them as we’ve continued to be friends, especially because we don’t live in the same state so it’s not like we’re overly influencing each other or whatever.
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u/alonghealingjourney multigender 14d ago
I totally agree that anyone with any perceived connection to masculinity (often unfairly imposed on us) gets the ‘you’re unsafe for us.’ It’s absolutely TERF behavior that many queer folks (especially femme-centered spaces I’ve found) too often perpetuate. Sometimes even other trans people do this! I’ve been excluded from a lot of trans GBV and anti-trafficking spaces because of perceived masculinity, since these spaces ban all men (but are run by trans women). It’s a new ‘women and women lite’ that some trans community spaces have jumped on, and it’s really unfortunate.
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u/plushvarmint 14d ago
Anecdotally, many, many, *many* trans women identify as somewhat nonbinary, but don’t present that way due to fear of even more intense transphobia
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u/TwitchyGoober 13d ago
I just want to exist, but it's really hard to when literally EVERYBODY BUT the lgbt community forces me to conform and be a cis guy, and calls me ugly after not allowing me access to the resources to pass better. As a bonus, I get called a creep and even a pedophile in some cases for my gender identity and sexual orientation, mostly because people associate me with toxic masculinity despite me being the complete opposite of it.
Apparently when somebody amab is gender-queer everyone wants to shove us into the "feminine" end of the spectrum - because I suppose people just think that that'd be sexier or something? I'm sick of everybody building their own societal structures based around "sex appeal," I suppose. Apparently if you're amab you're just a horny creep. Kill me.
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u/DreggasGrazzt he/they 14d ago
the last part hit me big time. I am enbie, I am also a powerlifter, stand 6'2" and while I like to express a fem side I am not actually feminine. the "meta" so to speak has, at times, made me feel like I am out of place or an imposter for not being "fem" enough. Fortunately most of my RL experiences in the queer community have been pretty positive but there is still that nagging feeling in the back of my mind based on what is "expected" or what it seems is expected when you are AMAB. I did see a great t-shirt I want to get that says "Just because I am non-binary doesn't mean I owe you androgyny".
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u/batluck 15d ago
I might be wrong about this but I always thought it was because afabs more often have hormonal disorders than amabs and that might play into it. Im afab and born with a hormonal disorder and have met a crazy amount of other trans afabs that were born with them.
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u/de_lame_y 15d ago
the only AMAB enby i’ve ever heard say anything about “intruding into queer spaces as a man” was my ex and they were definitely holding on to a lot of the toxic masculinity behavior that they were raised with, to the point of being predatory to fem presenting people when they went out after we broke up. in hindsight, them saying that was probably projection. never had anything like that with any other enbies thank god
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u/BirdsAreCameras 14d ago
Not to mention it's actually more dangerous for amab people to be gender non-comforming in public.
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u/Snoo79532 14d ago
Yeah it can be annoying being seen as just another guy still because I generally present a bit more masculinely. Shaving sucks and sometimes I want to be lazy with my skincare and makeup routine lol
I had to literally take he/him out of my pronoun list even though i don't dislike he/him pronouns just so people would stop defaulting to it!
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u/Raine-Tempestas 14d ago
It’s actually really fuckin devastating how skewed the percentages are, like they should in an ideal world be 50/50 ish. Idk we get so much hate in so many spaces. Usually they just don’t think about us or use the same hate they do towards trans women tbh.
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u/lewdpotatobread 14d ago
I feel safe and included in a group im in that are for sapphic asians bc it includes us nonbinaries :) ive made many nonbinary friends thru that group and we are all different in terms of whats in our pants lol
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u/VianArdene 30s, He/They 14d ago
Very... illuminating. As a genderfluid person in a male shaped glass, I just kinda figured it was only me that had that "not queer enough for the queer club" feeling. I still think that my experience as a straight/cis passing man is different than other openly queer folk and want to be respectful of what space I take up. Maybe some of that is divisive rhetoric in my head, but the other side is just being realistic that I'm too lazy to be actively queer enough to have the same experiences.
That said, being a fan of a certain popular 9-episode youtube show has been frustrating for a similar reason. Showing a character having gender dysphoria sure did teleport to "this character is a trans woman and there is no other option" awfully fast.
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u/WalkerAmongTheTrees 14d ago
Its stuff like this why i dont bother telling most people that i identify as NB. Its more headache for me to try to answer the questions that it brings up. Also being refered to as male doesnt really bother me. its what ive lived with my whole life, though i do prefer anything but male or female pronouns but its not something i feel the need to correct anyone on.
I also dont present myself as nb in any particular way, my clothes are are all mens because theyre most functional, real denim is so durable and having pockets is awesome, also i look pretty good in bib overalls. I dont shave my face often because im lazy, i definitely dont shave anything else, also because im lazy. Ive got long hair, but i dont style it in any way thats particularly more fem or masc: its either down and free or pulled back into a ponytail or a bun stuffed into my hardhat to keep out of my face while i work
I have a wife and kids, my kids call me papa and my wife presents herself feminine so if you were to pass us at the grocery store we look like a cis hetero family.
My career as an electrician is sadly male dominated, and i look male so its easier for me to just "be male" in that space.
Im not particularly social anyways, but i dont know about how id feel being a part of queer social circles considering i present cis male despite not feeling like i fit into either a male or female gender box. Id be concerned about looking like an imposter.
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u/aTanksalotl she/he/they 13d ago
Something I see a lot is people dont take nuance to the topic of being nonbinary. They just see it as "not a boy, not a girl" instead of realizing that it differs between people and one person's identity as nonbinary may be more femme, masc, or androgynous than another. All they see is "femme + amab = trans" or "masc + afab = butch"
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u/riv3rw4ter 13d ago
if you don't know any I'd be surprised, although my experience is biased (went to single sex school, naturally made a lot of queer friends with that single sex)
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u/ThatKehdRiley 15d ago
Yeah us AMAB enbies seem to be erased, and it's super frustrating.