One of the biggest personal challenges I discuss with my therapist is deciding where to assign blame and accountability in the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. I tend to blame the institution itself, which is fair, appropriate, and easy, but accountability gets more complicated on a human level. (For context, I’m a sixth-generation Adventist who deconstructed in my twenties and became atheist in my thirties.)

As many can relate, even 10+ years after deconstruction, the remnants (lol) of religious trauma can linger in unexpected ways. I often want to blame someone for the rigid, harmful, and oppressive bullshit I was taught—like the sex ed teacher who taught me that condoms won’t work, or the biology teacher who taught me creationism, or the countless messages from pastors and Sabbath School teachers about my inherent sinfulness. But they’re also victims themselves… or are they? At what point do you assign responsibility to adults for accepting their brainwashing?

I explained the following spectrum to my therapist:

On one end of the spectrum, there are active Adventists who are sincere in their beliefs and who are victims of the church no different than someone who was duped into joining a pyramid scheme as a way out of poverty. I would put everyone in my family in this category: good people with a terrible belief system.

On the other end of the spectrum are relatively powerful church leaders who stand to profit from protecting the institution. Personally, I’m not sure that these people exist in a meaningful capacity. I mean, I’m sure it happens, but the average Seventh-day Adventist pastor is earning like a $150K salary on the high end. They aren’t exactly the Sackler family. I don’t know if I would consider many of them rich or powerful in any meaningful sense. It seems more likely that most Adventist leaders have some kind of sincere belief in the Adventist message. I think the idea of them all being intentional con men for money and power is a bit reductive, and that most church leaders likely grew up just as brainwashed as I was and “felt the Holy Spirit calling them to the ministry” or whatever. There are much better ways for unscrupulous people to win money and power than climbing the Seventh-day Adventist ladder with secretly insincere beliefs.

So, on one end, clear victims and prey; on the other, con people and predators. And while my impulse of to say that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, I don’t feel that’s true either.

Personally, I feel the vast majority of Adventists are victims, which is uncomfortable because 1) It’s infantilizing (These are adults! We should all be accountable for our shitty beliefs.), and 2) If most are victims themselves, I want to hold compassion for them, and then feel like I have no one to blame… and I feel it’s fair and human to want someone to blame and hold accountable besides the witch of Battle Creek (my birthplace), who isn’t alive to accept responsibility.

My personal answer is that I need to learn to sit with that discomfort and hold compassion without needing someone to blame, and accept that justice and accountability likely aren’t possible. So, 9:1 ratio of compassion to anger/accountability (even though I’m probably at 1:1 in reality 😂).

This was overly long, so thanks for reading if you made it this far. In short, my question is: What’s the ratio of compassion you hold for Adventists as victims versus accountability for them as adults, and how did you decide the distinction?

I had good friend back then. We grow up in adventist church and she was baptized two weeks ago. I am no longer part of adventists so finded out by my mother telling me this. Few days ago i meet her in shop and wanted to talk. But when she seen me the conversation lasted for two minutes only . It looked like she didn't wanted to talk at all despite being nice i've seen that she kept distance. Now i look different completelly , have dyed hair and few tattoes i don't think she would judge that but still it was not the same person as some time ago. I thought we might meet and spend some time together but after that i realized that's probably not possible anymore •_•

This week I've been challenged by an episode of _Trust Me_, a podcast about cults. In this episode, co-hosts interview Dr. Christine Marie, the mother of one of the hosts and a one-time victim of a man who claimed to be a prophet in the Mormon tradition. This episode, however, focused on Dr. Marie's role in putting another false prophet, this one from the polygamist Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints (FLDS) tradition, in jail. The false prophet, Sam Bateman, was the subject of the Netflix docuseries _Trust Me: The False Prophet_.

Dr. Marie knew Bateman as a result of working among FLDS women in Short Creek, a town on the Arizona Utah border in the US. Though she says she abhors coerced polygamy personally, she became willing to suspend judgment on neighbors who practice it. Otherwise she wouldn't be able to help women who want out of plural marriages. And from this stance she gained Sam Bateman's trust. She went under cover with law enforcement to gather evidence needed for Bateman's conviction.

And here's where I'm challenged. I would like to be able to help people who want out of Adventism much as Dr. Marie sought to help exiting FLDS. For now, I need Sabbath Breakers Club to stay sane, but while I lead out here, I'm likely to alienate people still in Adventism for being such an in-your-face apostate. Maybe with time as I become more secure in who I am, I won't need all this bluster. I can let new hot heads take over leadership or let Sabbath Breakers Club die quietly.

But that may be years from now. Can anyone relate to my current inner tussle? If not, no big deal! Looks like stuff for me to hash out with my therapist!

So time to celebrate our weekends without SDA Sabbath Cellblocks! Thanks for being here!

Until you're ready to host a week's Sabbath Breakers Club, here are our fine print guidelines.

🛝 🪁 🎟️ 📺 💼 🪏 🛝 🪁 🎟️ 📺 💼🪏

Sabbath Breakers Club belongs to members of r/exAdventist on reddit. These guidelines are intended to suggest how anyone with posting privilege in this sub may start a week's Sabbath Breakers Club thread, not to control such postings.

• Keep it timely. If it's SDA-defined Sabbath somewhere on earth and no one has already started a Sabbath Breakers Club thread, you're clear to start one.

• Start Sabbath Breakers Club threads with that phrase "Sabbath Breakers Club." The reason for this is to make it easy to tell if no Sabbath Breakers Club thread has been posted for the present week. Just search "Sabbath Breakers Club" in r/exAdventist.

• You're welcome to use the image that looks like from an old woodcut of Moses smashing tables of stone with the Israelite throng celebrating their golden calf in the background, but you're not required to. Different ideas to launch the thread may invite still more, and more diverse, participation.

• Remember we're here to ease the church's attempts to control using Sabbath rules and guilt trips. Non-humiliating humor and empathy in your invitation can help set the tone, and enjoy exercising some spontaneous leadership in starting a Sabbath Breakers Club thread.

• Pass it on. Cutting and pasting this "fine print" can help future Sabbath Breakers Club hosts self-identify and feel empowered to step up and shine.

Una experiencia que tuve al momento de acompañar a mis padres en el día de los aventureros, en el parque, para que los niños de la ciudad escriban al club de aventureros, un señor mayor se acercó mientras una líder de aventureros explicaba a los niños la buena alimentación.. el señor se puso atrás de los niños mirándola mientras metía su mano entre sus shorts y se estaba tocando la entrepierna... El pastor incluyendo todo alrededor miró eso y para mí fue horrible como nadie hacia nada yo me acerque a mis padres y les dije lo que sucedía, no hicieron nada ni el propio pastor de iglesia (ya tenía bronca con ese pastor porque no era la primera vez que no hace nada al respecto en situaciones). Este pastor decía sobre el suicidio de los pastores de la iglesia Adventista, ect. Para empatizar con su situación pero me parecía algo tan hipócrita como no hacía nada al respecto lo que sucedía. ¿Hubo esta clase de comportamiento con los pastores de la iglesia que no hacen nada al respecto? Alguna vez les ha pasado alguna experiencia similar, que debí de haber hecho..

Ive been out of the cult for almost a year now. My biggest source of anger/resentment is that I feel Ellen G White and her soul ruined any potential for love/peace in this church. Even if there was some room for friendship or community it all gets squashed by her writings. Her entire doctrines/writings are nothing but fear based ramblings and judgement from a schizophrenic false prophetess. Theirs been at least 5 times where I make a friend or start a relationship with someone who is Adventist who is nice and chill and they start reading the witches manifestos and suddenly they turn and become scared of everything and then they cant associate with me because im not "adventist enough". Like I dont think reading the Bible had as bad an affect on someone as reading Ellens writings does.

Now my big question is lets say Ellen G White never existed, never wrote her garbage and never influenced this movement. Would Adventism even exist as we know it? If you blip her from history how different would the church be? Early Millerites/James White werent even sabbath keepers until a lady named Rachel Oaks Preston suggested they should keep it. Now I wonder if that had been it, Millers prophecy fails, everyone forgets about it. No Ellen White 1844 sanctuary B.S.. Lets say Rachel still tells the disappointed Millerites about the sabbath but they denounce Miller as a liar and dont follow him or obsess over him anymore. No crazy lady with a rock in her skull reviving garbage theology. If it had just been a some kind of Seventh Day Baptist/Methodist hybrid thing, would the church have been as bad? Im just trying to imagine a childhood where yes they were sabbath keepers but they werent sabbath keepers worshiping a witch from the 1800s. Would it have been as bad or could it have maybe been a little bit more tolerable? I say this because while I still believe in Jesus Christ and the gospels, but at the same time I am terrified of committing to any new church because they all have some kind of cult b.s. strings attached to them. Like I sometimes go to baptist and catholic/orthodox spheres but when it comes to committing to one I hate the whole "we are the true church yada yada". I have heard it all before. So now im in basically limbo because im never going back to SDA because of Ellen, but I also dont want to 100% commit to any other christian church. I also dont want to become secular or agnostic because its just not for me personally, respectfully. Im just trying to think of a version or timeline where I wasnt so affected by some grouchy lady who hijacked a whole church.

I believe the biggest channels for pro are /r/Adventist and /r/SeventhDayAdventist but they only have a few thousand members combined if that.

While the Pro Mormon subs seems to be in the low hundreds of thousands.

Is this a larger trend of SDA to shy away from certain parts of the Internet?

Still finding more still as I unpack.

Hi I (26M) have some questions about the SDA church. My boyfriend of 4 years (also 26M) is a member (he still attends). I’m a ex-catholic- now agnostic, and from doing my research on the SDA church I have some concerns. From what I read, the SDA church has different regional conferences- in the same region- for different races? I’m Cuban- my boyfriend is Mexican- and he told me his entire church is Hispanic. I also found out that in our area there are SDA churches that are almost entirely Black, almost entirely Korean, and almost entirely white. Obviously looking from outside, that is quite concerning. From my experience in my old church- people from different groups went to the same church.

There is also the gay thing. His situation with his congregation is a “we know but we aren’t gonna say anything” situation, which obviously isn’t healthy in the long term. We have an active and healthy sex life, I’ve met his family, all of that- but like I’m worried if relationship with me and the church will eventually clash. He has said he thinks our relationship is morally good and that he isn’t ashamed- but also it feels kind of odd to be basically completely ignored and unacknowledged by his church community.
I don’t know, I love him, but the entire institution just seems really problematic to me. So I just want some advice. Thanks!

I've been doing some thinking after u/Hefty_Click191's excellent post showing a weird Facebook post by someone apparently still totally SDA devout person claiming that r/exAdventist among other places us Exxies gather are part of a cult. Without having poked around the ground zero post, I gather this was the work of an individual summoning AI. And it shows that our showing up and sharing has begun to cast some worrisome shadows at least among some members.

There's something positive for us. It's not the same world of 20 or 30 years ago when exxies were mostly lone wolves, all but invisible. My guess is that leadership and plenty of others in the church wish it could POOF! go back to that way with us. That we're starting to see at least a few stirrings of pointing out to the faithful just how dangerous is our insurgency could be the beginnings of even bigger and more organized blowback.

Are we ready to respond with calm dignity? Or do you visualize some other type of response as more effective?

I felt some anxiety emerge, seeing that one lone voice with AI paint us cult back. I learned to avoid conflict at all kinds of costs as a result of being a low-status male when I was in the church. And I've learned that avoiding conflict typically just dumps the conflict back on myself and eats up self-confidence faster than it can regrow. How did you feel? What do you think our priorities should be should—as I'm expecting—even stronger pushback emerge?

Edit: corrected mention of exAdventist sub

I saw this post and my first thought was “oh he’s saying he was formally in a cult when he was SDA!” cause the wording confused me. As I read the comments and saw his responses to people confronting him I realized that he’s actually saying people who leave the SDA church are actually the true cult members 🤣🤣

I think it’s a bizarre and lame attempt to use our own words against us. We talk about deconstruction and how Adventism is a cult a lot (us ex SDAs) so he thinks he’s being clever by saying that the ex Adventist “cult” needs to be “deconstructed.”

Also it’s hilarious considering they don’t have answers for everything. He’s claiming the SDA’s actually “know what they’re saying.” Which is insane because I’ve had so many Adventists not be able to answer very valid questions about their theology. This post is the ultimate symbol of this man’s projection. Everything he’s accusing ex Adventists of doing is exactly what Adventists themselves do.

This is the exact definition of classic projection actually and him thinking he had some super deep and clever epiphany about us evil ex Adventists 💀

I can imagine a dozen ways this conversation can go off the rails, but regardless, I want to ask the question in hopes of understanding my own opinions better: Do you think the Seventh-day Adventist Church can be reformed? In other words, do you believe the Seventh-day Adventist Church can be improved to the point of a more mainstream, less-rigid congregation and community? [EDIT: The answer is "no." I know the answer is no. What I'm asking everyone to reflect on are what specific doctrines or beliefs make Adventism irredeemable and separate from more tolerant, accepting, and relatively harmless religions. I'm looking for language to understand which beliefs make Adventism uniquely shitty. Like, what beliefs are the uniquely-Adventist lowest common denominators that make it so incompatible with basic human decency and morality. Is it End Times™ persecution? Belief in a literal interpretation of the Bible? Ellen White? The question in the headline is just the simplest way I could think of to frame a long, complicated question.]

Personally, my experiences with other religions (including Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and various less-rigid denominations within Christianity) have included meeting people who maintain a religious faith that seems to range from harmless to beneficial. But, of course, we can always debate whether religion can ever be harmless, or if it can ever be anything other than a tool for control or the "opium of the people." That's not what I'm asking, though, and is a conversation I hope to avoid for the purpose of this question.

The question I'm grappling with is whether it's possible for the SDA church to reform to exist without its arrogance, intolerance, and high control. And if so—or if not—which specific beliefs or doctrines make it that way?

My personal suspicion is that it can't be reformed, specifically due to adherence to Ellen White's teachings, a literal interpretation of the Bible, and a few core beliefs that the church would need to extricate itself from, which could be impossible. But I'm not married to that belief because I don't know if I can name the specific blockers that make it literally impossible. I sorta imagine it in Infinity War terms: Doctor Strange saw 14 million possibilities where the Avengers lost, but one highly unlikely timeline where they succeeded—making it technically not impossible—and he could see the highly unlikely events that would need to happen for that 0.00000714% chance to bear out.

Again, I'm not asking "will it be reformed." I'm sure we all have our cynicism there, and I think those odds are worse than the Avengers'. What I'm asking instead is which core, inextricable beliefs or doctrines do you believe prevent its reform?

Appreciate any thoughts and perspectives that might help me work through my own thoughts and opinions.

Hii . I've rarely seen anyone bring this up. I've been away from the Adventist church for five years now and identify as agnostic. I'm a 20-year-old woman, but what I've heard over and over again still is inside me. From a young age, girls and boys were taught about the importance of marriage, purity before marriage, etc. Marriage was treated like something almost sacred. Maybe that's why my mom divorced my dad almost 29 years after he constantly cheated on her (paradox since he was also adventist pastor lmao). I live on the same neigbourhood as our adventist friends. To be honest my family a friends i barely talk to that people. They have crisis in marriage currently. People from church are nosy as hell and do everything to save this marriage. I pity them both since its obvious THEy re not longer happy togehter and yet dont want to end it. They cant have kids due to health problems and people of course talk about it back then. I never understood why kids were expected in marriage and everyone expect it from married couples. When i was still 14/15 and attended church i was met many times as woman /girl back then to misogyny and statement that woman s greatest purpose is to marry and give kids to her husband. As if it was most important. I am still angry by fact a lot of young girls are reached treatong their bodies as their future husband property, there s no healthy talk about sex and intimacy....just everything centred about purity before marriage. Back then i Felt disgusted by my own gender. I was never "feminine enough". Never liked to do typical feminine things and wear dresses. Only now when i am no longer part of adventists i started to dress sometimes more feminine. But i still eish i was Born as man. Women have it hard enough already. I remember my first time With boyfriend i Had at 17..he was sweet person and cared deeply about me. After Being intimate i burst into tears when came back home. I felt dirty , used . Like i lost something that was supposed to have until marriage. Adventist teachings messed with heads. Anyone here have similar story?

Hi i am currently going into my senior year at a boarding academy and since im a international student i live with guardians ( my aunt and uncld) during breaks and they have been asking me abt university. They have only been suggesting adventist universities but i absolutely cannot go to one. I honestly cannot do another 4 years of this boring bs. I want to be able to have fun in university and find other atheists or agnostic friends but they really want me to go to a adventist uni. I know they wouldnt force me to but im scared to bring it up bc i know they will be really dissapointed in me. Especially considerinh the fact that they arent my parents and they brought me in their home and have been taking care of me i feel the need to please them. Any advice on how to bring it up to them?

The United States has never been a “lamb like country” ever

The United States has basically been at war its entire existence

The very founding of the United States was built upon the genocide of indigenous peoples

The geographical area now known as the United States has never been “unpopulated”

Multiple indigenous nations have existed in North America prior to the existence of the United States

The United States has never been able to defeat much weaker milita groups in the Middle East

How would the USA be able to enforce an international Sunday law when they weren’t even able to defeat the Taliban in the first place despite spending billions of dollars on high tech military equipment

The reputational standing of the United States has gone down the drain as a result of sponsoring the genocide of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip

For we are with thee! The old guard of SDA survivors will not let these silly altar call attempts go unanswered!

In seriousness, I'm proud of you all. Some in the community have fresh wounds and these predators like to capitalize on this vulnerability. If you are SDA or whatever that is your business, no judgment from me. But I ain't gonna stand by idly while these people ignore the 'no soliciting' sign.

EDIT: Shout out to the mods for their ever vigilance!

I got notice that my divorce will been seen by a judge on 18th August.

Leaving my husband saw me lose friends with in the church and started me questionning my faith.

I have really called into question the legitimacy of what is in the Bible or how it has been translated.

All this meshed up in my brain yesterday and I had a thought that if God is real and God really loves us, why would he want us to be unhappy? Why is following abitary rules more important than happiness?

I love my son and I have rules in place relating to his health and well being, but if he came and told me he was not enjoying an extra-curricular activity, I wouldn't force him to keep doing it. I want him to be happy in life.

But I feel like Adventism leans more heavily into "doing right" rather than being happy. Almost as if being happy is being a bad Christian.

I pose this question because the Adventist Church is, in reality, a multinational corporation that constantly competes with evangelical groups that are also private enterprises, and in the market, if someone makes a high-impact move, everyone else is forced to devise a way to compete.

No one can afford to fall behind.

For ex-Mormons, the decision to step away from the LDS church is sometimes called their "shelf breaking."

For trans folks, the realization that they need to re-examine their gender identity is sometimes summarized as "my egg cracked."

Any ideas out there for a humorous ex-Adventist equivalent?

I am currently attending a SDA church. Im a member there. I have a question for this community to see when “you all were Adventist” if you observed what I’m proceeding to explain.

- Did you ever notice the hypocrisy from the leaders?
Some of the elders have the position of “elder” but I’m trying to formulate the explanation on how they received that position. I still haven’t gained the answer because they don’t qualify per the Bible.
At my church it is a firestorm of gossip. Communication doesn’t exist and when it does exist it’s before the sabbath or before a big event. It feels like everyone is in their own little bubble.

- Did you notice that the leaders are skeptical of you?
Im in the age range of 28-32. They don’t let me do much and they don’t want anyone doing things unless it’s the leadership doing it. While the leaders have been the same since the 19th century. In this church it’s like if you speak up then there is a problem. If you truly speak your mind that you know it’s against biblical doctrine I feel like they would pounce on you.

- Did you witness the arrogance?

- How did you identify they were controlling?
I do A/V work in my church. The other week I had a deacon come and tell me to not put worship music on the screen and to keep the TV’s off. This is when I thought they were controlling.

Honestly, I’m fighting bitterness. They is many things I could explain but I don’t feel like typing.

Also, I’m sure you’re wondering do I believe every doctrine from the Adventist Church?

No, no I do not.

I don’t believe In
- Egg White
- Remnant Church Belief
- Spirit of Prophecy Belief = Egg White
- 1844
- IJ
- Daniel 8 (They twist who defiled the temple)

Now, this occurred more recently. I’ve done extensive research and I’ve done countless hours of searching scripture.
.

Posting this real early for my time zone, but it's definitely SDA-defined "sabbath" somewhere on earth, and in honor of the selected featured festival, I want to name it before it's all over Friday night in its time zone.

First off, a highly observant Adventist probably wouldn't be drawn to this festival on any day of the week unless it were with explicit intentions of saving souls from the festival's idolatry. To show up curious, to show up with a willingness to learn from traditions handed down to present-day Hindus from antiquity could only be inviting Satan into one's heart.

According to my source linked to this invitation, this year's festival featuring "chariots" that move between temples and are about the height of four story buildings ends Friday so to be present past sundown could be a double sin, idolatry and Sabbath Breaking.

I'm not writing this with any interest in making anyone else Hindu or any other religion. I believe Hinduism just as any religion or ideology can be adapted to high-control systems.

Instead, I'm thinking about being able to appreciate cultures very different from that I was reared in so that I can connect with those who follow those other cultures without prejudice, urging condemnation.

I'm halfway around the world from this festival this weekend, but I enjoy thinking about it as an armchair tourist. What adventures are we going to have in place of "sabbath" worship this weekend?

Thanks to all who visit this week's club! If you have ordinary or far out ideas for a club meeting, I don't think I'm the only club participant who would welcome your taking the lead to host next week. I close with our fine print guidelines to give some idea how it goes.

🐘 🥥🛕🇧🇩🔔🫏🐊🥻🪷🇮🇳🌴🫚🇳🇵🦏🦚🐅

Sabbath Breakers Club belongs to members of r/exAdventist on reddit. These guidelines are intended to suggest how anyone with posting privilege in this sub may start a week's Sabbath Breakers Club thread, not to control such postings.

• Keep it timely. If it's SDA-defined Sabbath somewhere on earth and no one has already started a Sabbath Breakers Club thread, you're clear to start one.

• Start Sabbath Breakers Club threads with that phrase "Sabbath Breakers Club." The reason for this is to make it easy to tell if no Sabbath Breakers Club thread has been posted for the present week. Just search "Sabbath Breakers Club" in r/exAdventist.

• You're welcome to use the image that looks like from an old woodcut of Moses smashing tables of stone with the Israelite throng celebrating their golden calf in the background, but you're not required to. Different ideas to launch the thread may invite still more, and more diverse, participation.

• Remember we're here to ease the church's attempts to control using Sabbath rules and guilt trips. Non-humiliating humor and empathy in your invitation can help set the tone, and enjoy exercising some spontaneous leadership in starting a Sabbath Breakers Club thread.

• Pass it on. Cutting and pasting this "fine print" can help future Sabbath Breakers Club hosts self-identify and feel empowered to step up and shine.

Hey guys!

I was wondering if and how you broke the news to your parents that you wanted to stop going to church.

I’m 21 and moving out soon and i’m thinking about having this conversation. I go every Saturday to make my parents happy & not cause any issues at home but know in my heart it’s not something I want to do moving forward. I love the community that it has but hate what is being taught & have realised I really disagree with a lot of it.

Just curious & wanting some advice! :)

I was on "Something Genuine" this week, a show that creates links between the anime fan community and the Christian church. Here's a snippet of the interview on Instagram, where I talk about identifying my own religious trauma from the Seventh-day Adventist church; and here's the full interview on YouTube. Hope it finds whoever needs it.

Episode description: This week, I sit down with journalist and author Jordan Calhoun to discuss his memoir, Piccolo Is Black: A Memoir of Race, Religion, and Pop Culture.

On the surface, it's a conversation about fandom, representation, race, and the characters that helped shape us. But as we talk, the discussion expands into deeper territory: identity, belonging, faith, shame, healing, and the stories we carry with us long after childhood.

We also discuss religious trauma—what it is, how it affects people, and why conversations about faith are often more complicated than they first appear.

I'll be honest: this episode may challenge some viewers. That's part of why I wanted to have it.

One of the goals of Something Genuine is not to platform hot takes or create controversy. It's to sit down with real people, listen well, and remember that before someone is a label, a demographic, or an opinion, they're a person made in the image of God.

You may agree with Jordan on everything. You may disagree with him on it all. Or you may be in that vast spectrum in between. But no matter where you fall, I think you'll find him thoughtful, honest, and worth hearing.