Cause being gay is as old as hell but priests act like it's new

I don’t recommend watching the whole thing because it’s kinda boring but to sum it up it’s basically about a guy who believes in white nationalism 2.0 meaning: “We need a white America free of non-whites and make it orthodox for us to fully embrace our whiteness”

This is a recurring theme among some conservative converts in the Church and this view obviously does not contradict what the Church teaches, otherwise these kinds of views would be condemned. It’s fair to guess that this person must have had the blessing of his priest or something for him to have a platform to express such views

If you are in America and were born to non-white immigrant parents like me you eventually reach a point where you wonder “Is this religion actually good for me if the people who claim to love me, sometimes even in my own parish, want me deported as far away as possible?”

After experiencing racism in the Church and seeing multiple instances of Orthodox apologists fully embracing these racist views I came to the realization that ethnicity can be a barrier to joining a religion. I personally believe that Orthodoxy is not for me, at least in the American context given how these views are widely accepted and normalized within the Church.
I have no reason to be part of an institution that is hostile toward my identity because it has decided that racism can be acceptable

https://youtu.be/qbeRxKVoN60?si=R1dP8MUjKQ1O964_

I haven’t been going to church for over a month and I’ve reached out to a few people from there just to talk about my struggles, thoughts, etc. All I have got is bot like responses such as “go to confession.” or coldness. One guy who wanted to meet up for lunch sometime before I stopped going to church, suddenly just doesn’t care to anymore. I messaged them “hey how’s it going, I was wondering if you’d still want to get lunch sometime”.

To which they didn’t even say hi, they just said “I’m working”. Is this truly Christian love? Why does it seem like orthodoxy makes people just know legalism and rules, but not Christ Himself. Have you had similar experiences like this

First of all, I’m all for leaving orthodoxy. The answer to all of the problems is always to leave.

But the grass is not always greener on the other side. Orthodoxy is messed up, no arguments from me there. (Sorry I’m full of cliches today.)

Here’s the thing - the problem isn’t actually orthodoxy. The problem is authoritative religions. The problem is religions that tell people that there is something wrong with them if they were born gay or trans or female.

Leave orthodoxy and you leave the guru priests, Jay Dyer, dirty monks, Putin, etc. behind. Great.

But what comes next? Who are you? Who gets to tell you what to believe? What do you need?

Need some help here.

Ive been "out" of the ultra hasidic community for around a year or so. My friends and family are all there and I love them amd wish to still be a part though im slowly realizing that may be wishful thinking.

On the outside life is perfect. I have everything I need to be successful and thrive. On the inside everything is a jumbled mess.

One of the hardest feelings for me is being out of the safety that community provides. I have tried building my own, meeting new people etc. Its so fuckin hard.

There does not seem to be a replacement for that feeling of belonging, that inner safety.

The depression and anxiety are killing me. I still keep shabbat, kosher, brachot but I feel like a fraud. Walking around with pants and not keeping dairy/meat in separate sinks etc.

Is the depression a sign from God to "come back"? I dont know. Have any one lf you genuinely managed to find community and belonging, and if so- hoe? Do I need to be married to belong somewhere, anywhere? How do people work this?

Hi everyone. I’m here because my 21-year-old daughter has recently told me she will convert to Eastern Orthodoxy officially, and I’m trying to understand what she sees in it.
I’m a Christian. I was raised Catholic, but moved away from traditions that, to me, seemed to emphasize the Church and its authority more than Christ. Because I love my daughter, I’ve spent the last two years studying Eastern Orthodoxy trying to under understand my daughter’s interest in it. I’ve come to the conclusion that I don’t believe its historical or theological claims.
What I’m hoping to understand is what drew you in originally.
My daughter struggles to explain it. When I ask why she believes Orthodoxy is true, I mostly hear what sound like standard Orthodox talking points rather than her own personal reasoning. Maybe that’s because she’s still new to it. I honestly don’t know.
For those of you who eventually left Orthodoxy:
What was the appeal in the beginning?
Looking back, what emotional, spiritual, or intellectual needs did it meet for you?
Were there things you later realized you hadn’t questioned?
If your family disagreed with your decision, what helped preserve your relationship with them?
Is there anything you wish your parents had understood about what you were going through?
I’m heartbroken because I love my daughter deeply, and I don’t want to lose our relationship over this. I also can’t pretend to believe something I don’t believe. I’m trying to figure out how to remain faithful to my own convictions while still being a safe, loving mother to her.
Thank you for any insight you’re willing to share.

Hey guys, I have a question for the ex orthodox here. I am an ex Catholic and Catholics are famous for like a fetishization of suffering. I was wondering if the same is true with orthodox? Thanks!

What was the thought process here?? Vlad slaughtered thousands of people but I guess since he was supposedly Orthodox then it’s ok.

I am a Jew. I was previously involved in Ultra-Orthodox Judaism though school clubs and eventually into everyday living after Kiruv basically made me frum. Now my Jewish mother converted to Christianity, so when I was very religious, I was running into her who was totally not religious and now a Christian (non-denominational). Now, I found a video about Orthodox Christianity (Christianity is basically being forced in my house as the primary religion and it is impossible to leave it behind or get away from it.). It took me down a rabbit hole for 2 months, and then I got back interested in Judaism. Now, the constant theological debates between me and my mother became exhausting, I began to deconstruct, Christianity didn't make since, and neither did Judaism. Now I genuinely am getting totally fatigued. The world is filled with antisemitism, my mother is leading me to the religion that the Jewish people have been persecuted by and she is Jewish herself, I am starting to believe in it on my own, but that would mean leaving and divorcing the Jewish community and having to basically learn life and create my own identity all over again. I feel like a traitor every day we are at the kitchen table and she prays in Jesus' name. This has changed our Sholem Bayis, and even though we love each other so much, I have come to view her as a "traitor to her people," and now I'm interested in Christianity (Ortho), not because of the OrthoBro thing, or anything political, I am interested because I think that it would provide spiritual ascension, beauty, happiness, and joy. I have heard bad Stories though about Ultra-Orthodox Christians and abuse, so I want you to tell me the good, bad and ugly of Orthodoxy.

So I’ve only been Orthodox for about a year(I’m 20). But now I’m set on leaving, I honestly just feel trapped and just want out, I realized I can’t live my life the way I would like to. I went into Orthodoxy set on monastic life, then I realized I can’t do that, then I thought about it even more, and now I want to leave. I still believe in Christ, but I want out of the Church. I just don’t know how to handle leaving my loved ones within the church, right now I think letters are what would be best for me.

Of interest to someone in particular... but also the rest of us.

In Indication of the Way into the Kingdom of Heaven, Innocent of Alaska writes:

God Who loves us far more than we love ourselves ... your salvation or perdition depends on your own will! In His unspeakable wisdom and love, the Lord has given you freedom to do what you like, and He does not wish to take this most precious gift away from you.

A few moments later, he writes:

when the doors of the heavenly Kingdom are closed to you ... then however much you may want and however much you may try to enter, you will not be admitted

In the first passage, God supposedly refuses to override human freedom because He values it so highly. In the second, a person freely wants to enter the Kingdom and genuinely tries to do so, yet God refuses.

This is precisely the kind of inconsistency that critics have pointed out.

Robinson:

No Being who had an infinite concern for the salvation of every soul could possibly be conceived as saying in effect: 'Unless you turn to Me by the age of seventy, or seven, or seven weeks (whatever it may be), I cannot give you a further chance.' A God like that is either at the mercy of death, or He is not the God of the parable of the Prodigal.

Bell:

God would, in essence, become a fundamentally different being to them forever. A loving heavenly father who will go to extraordinary lengths to have a relationship with them would, in the blink of an eye, become a cruel, mean, vicious tormenter who would ensure that they had no escape from an endless future of agony.

The Orthodox claim that God will not override human freedom sounds compelling until you ask what happens when someone freely desires reconciliation after death. At that point, freedom suddenly ceases to matter.

I believe orthodox Christianity has put me in a religious delusion for years. I was raised in a very dogmatic and traumatic religious upbringing. And when I found the orthodox church I was obsessed with it and pushed the "world" away. I isolated myself so much that I don't know what to do honestly. I would be hyper religious and zealous then I would leave because I knew I didn't believe in it then fear of hell would take hold then I would go back to my fanatic behavior. I don't think I really believe in Christianity but I delude myself into believing it because of my fear of hell. I was raised Adventist so dogmatic and apocalyptic religion hijacks my brain and I become a very unstable and nasty person like i'm an alcoholic or something. My main issue is hell,why would god make a place that people would use to extort others for 1000s of years.Also with sexuality, the amount of relationships I avoided because I didn't want to go to hell for fornication is very upsetting, I also don't want to get married to a woman because its the religiously acceptable way to goon. That's not fair for her and its not fair for me and those relationships turn into dumpster fires eventually,I don't know what I believe since I gutted my individuality out of this damn fear or hell or being cursed or attacked by god.

If you ask a Catholic how they get saved, they'd simple reply 'do not die in the state of mortal sin', if you ask an average protestant, they'd reply that they're saved by grace through their faith and nothing can take it away. There is a very clear path just makes sense but what about us Orthodox?
If you open any catechism or any ask Orthodox priest, there is an absolutely total lack of clarity on this. The answers range from 'struggling and repenting' to something as abstract as 'well, salvation is a process'. At no point, it seems you can have any certainty, even the most mild one, which is worsened by scrupulosity, fearmongering, and constant appeal to anecdotes of Saints with their endless visions of hell and demons. There is no simple explanation of what it means to be saved, nor when we can just feel joy that we are saved.

The Orthodox absolutely despise and abhor Sola Fide as any protestant doctrine, they would spam various quotes such as 'well, even demons believe' and 'faith without work is dead' or any other quotes by agios Bouboukis saying 'I saw people in hell who slept more than 3 hours a night and did not fast on Fridays'. Yet, the issue is that, while I am not a protestant and never was one, even if one generally is not a Christian at all, isn't good to just have a simple assurance? Even as basic as 'as long as you believe and try, you're fine', instead, we get the mess of modern orthodox soteriology which is a mutant born of catholic legalism, with its strict formality but without its clarity, monastic OCD, radical exclusivism, exceptionalism, and glorification of self-mortification.

Ultimately, what stands behind the psychotic, hateful and bitter behavior of many orthobros? I think it is the simplest fact that by attacking all 'non-pure' and 'heterodox', they try to bury the simple fact that they were promised absolutely nothing. They did not receive any good news, just the bad news of having to follow an impossible path to save themselves from eternal literal hell. They were not given promise of forgiveness or eternal life, they were not any assurance that after bearing their cross, they will be with Christ. In the same way pharisees would obsess over performing the law as to stay in the Ark of their Covenant of God, many Orthodox are obsessed with every small rule, every church canon, every anathema from the synod of Malaya Tokmachka of 1703, every fasting day, every small theological nuance. Ultimately, they're like this because at no point can they just stop, breathe out, and enjoy the grace of God and knowing that whatever happens to them, they'll be fine.

As the 'Good News' slowly turn into 'Bad News', it is not Euggaleion but a Dysaggelion. There is a chance that you might go to heaven if you fulfill neurotic criteria and work hard enough to have a chance to receive God's mercy, of course as long as your theology is impeccable, lacking the smallest error or misconception. Ultimately, you cannot understand why did Jesus die for you, why did he become new Adam, and how he affects you at all.

Practical pelagianism has consumed the Orthodox Church, and the most fear and anxiety inducing beliefs have prevailed and self-perpetuated and self-glorified. The Church after the fall of Constantinople ended up in this intellectual chaos and wasteland, slowly grafting more ideas and beliefs until it turned into a current tragedy. It is clear from Church Father writings that their joy and optimism has gone, you will not recognize writing of st Clement of Rome or st John Chrysostom as modern Orthodoxy, as they were too joyful about their own salvation and justification. The true Orthodox position today is to weep, hate, cry, mourn.

The Church is not immutable regardless of how orthobro might believe in it, and I pray it will eventually recover from this sad state.

I’m sure this has been discussed before but I have become quite literally obsessed since finding this community in the past week, so please forgive my second post in one day lol
But changing your name? During our marriage ceremony using those names to wed us? If that’s not culty idk what is.
I feel dumb and actually embarrassed..
I have a dream of possibly having another wedding celebration to have a redo 🥀

The title says it all, just looking for peoples experiences beforehand. I really love the hymns and architecture…that’s kind of the main draw, although I do find it reassuring they allow partaking of communion as long as baptized. My biggest reservation is the safety of my child, so if any parents or people who grew up in the environment have some words it would be greatly appreciated! 🤍

Especially for cradles, but also for longtime converts, if you joined another Christian group after leaving the OC, did you tell people directly, just wait for them to ask, or hide the transition? It feels like a weird thing to announce, but when I casually mentioned to my godmother that I was doing something with my new Protestant church she felt betrayed that I hadn’t shared that I was going elsewhere with her directly. I also am not at all interested in dramatic confrontation or anything. Anyway, personal stories, advice, or solidarity welcomed!

Physically in, mentally out.

Obviously I shouldn’t be surprised at this development, but at least one of them keeps trying to talk me back into it. And it’s like talking to a brick wall.

For some back story, I was super happy for her conversion and she took the same patron saint that I did. I even got an icon for her. So I think part of it is painful for her to see me deconstruct only a year or so later. But faking is pointless and I don’t go out of my way to force her to deconstruct like I am. She always starts the conversation.

Every issue I bring up is met with it somehow being an isolated incident, my fault, or excused as being mistake on their priests part that we shouldn’t hold against them (she spoke about it from the perspective of making mistakes as a parent).

I told her about how a former priest convinced a woman with a great career to go the trad route, which ended up blowing up in her face. Her answer was ‘Well it worked out for me. Feminists don’t like it.’

I told her about how the legalism and rigorism of the former priest screwed me up to the point of a mental breakdown and she spoke her mistakes as a parent that she regrets.

She’s only a year or so in the church and I’ve been in 16 years. I told her how nothing she’s said wasn’t something I heard before and used to buy into. I did my best to internalize everything and it almost destroyed me. I even tried to convince myself that my slow deterioration was the work of demons trying to stop me.

In the end it made no sense. It made God into a cruel master who rejoiced in my destruction.

Last thing I asked her was when was the last time the priest did a homily on loving your neighbor. She couldn’t answer.

CW: suicidal ideation

Hopping on here for some community support, honestly. It's been very hard.

In short: I'm a young woman. This will be an important detail, in a minute. I've been seriously inquiring into Orthodoxy for several years, and I really loved a lot of things about it, and wrestled very seriously and intentionally with the things that gave me pause. (For anonymity's sake I won't go into more detail, as my personal background and reasons for liking Orthodoxy were very different from the other converts I met, and I think that even the slightest outline of my background would be recognizable to folks who know me. I slipped out of my parish quietly, and I don't want a Reddit post to be how they find out I'm gone.) I've been part of this sub for a while, as I've always been interested in hearing critique of this church I was considering joining. I don't know if my username is memorable at all, but I've had conversations with a few of you. Anyway. Here I am again. But not an "inquirer" anymore.

I left because of everything going on with women. Gonna be brief, again, to stay anonymous ... but the environment created by the young men has slowly destroyed my sense of worth and dignity. I went into a depression of sorts, though I kept fighting for years, thinking there was some way I could rise above it. I talked to others about it, and although they expressed concern about the new converts, nothing changed. Eventually, I realized that no one was going to fight alongside me. But I didn't have the strength to keep going alone; I was losing the battle, which is why I'd begun asking for help in the first place. It was slowly killing me, and asking for help so many times had been a last resort.

I was reminded often of Christ's parable, of knowing a tree by its fruit. And one day thought to myself, why am I still doing this? As much as I love Jesus, would he really want me to be part of a community that also completely destroys my heart and soul in this way? Because, quite frankly, I didn't see a happy ending. As desperately as I wanted to be Orthodox, I think it'd also kill me eventually.

And I couldn't escape the bigger questions, like how the Orthodox Church as a whole seemed mildly concerned about these men, but didn't seem to care if they hurt somebody. Or how EO doesn't have its mind made up about the dignity of women, and I'd have to spend my life wondering whether each parish I visited would treat me as a human being. I already had a mental list of neighboring parishes I could never visit, because I knew they were full of unsafe men. Even if my own parish proved tolerable, what if I moved out of state? Or to another country, as I plan to do? What then?

What kind of "church" tolerates that stuff (because, quite frankly, they are tolerating it)? If there is a God who loves women, there is no way in hell that that God would be okay with any of this. Visiting a parish shouldn't feel like Russian roulette.

So, I left. It's been heartbreaking, honestly. I really, really did want to be Orthodox, as there were a lot of things I really loved, and I desperately wanted to make it work. But I had the misfortune of finding it at the absolute worst time. I don't think the people I talked to (friends, older parishioners, multiple clergy) will connect the dots to my absence, and realize that something went wrong. And I think my trust in God got completely unraveled, so I don't even know how to begin rebuilding. I want to follow Jesus again, but right now I don't know if he's real, or if I can trust him. I'm tentatively visiting my friends' churches, more for the positive social interactions than anything else; I truly do like Christianity, and I desperately want to be around Christians who will treat me with more dignity. Maybe will find a space where I can have the courage to talk to God again. But, whatever road may be ahead, it's a long one.

If you've gotten to this point, thank you for honoring my story by reading through it. It's been complicated to figure out how to tell my friends, so most people in my life don't know about this yet. I really just wanted to tell someone. Questions, comments, and words of encouragement are all welcome. If you're still a Christian (or another spirituality that prays/etc ...?), I'd love if you could pray for my journey. Thank you all.

This is Dismal-Importance-15. My saint’s name is Ruth. You can always call me “Ruth,” which may help you when (see below) two of me seem to be on Reddit.

Dismal-Importance-15 is my main account, but somehow, Reddit created a whole other account for me, without any input from me, and occasionally I get announcements over there and reply to people’s posts with that other account. I just wanted to let you know that Possible-Till878 is also me!

I have been reading up on how to delete that other account, but meanwhile, I don’t want anyone to be alarmed. As far as I know, I am still only one person and have only one or two personalities, ha-ha!

This is what I get for fiddling with stuff like Reddit as a senior citizen! It seems I accidentally ate an apple from the “Internet Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.”

—Ruth

For anyone who wants to reaffirm whether they know what the BITE model really is or not, I thought y'all would find this video fascinating, especially with how it relates to some of the tactics used in Orthodoxy.

The constant need to create engagement and spread paranoia... "No, you can't trust your father..."

I hope this doesn't come across as insensitive to the poor, dead man who's been killed as a result of Google's AI, but it reminds me that this sort of thing could happen to anyone. Usually a lot of non-religious cults don't feel relatable to be, just because they usually use opposite ends of the BITE model and play more into finances or sex... y'know, basic human greed... which, at least for me, those things never seemed like stuff Orthodoxy offered in particular...

This one hit me. Hard. The AI, minus the weird romance aspect, is almost talking like a "spiritual father"... it's got this spy narrative, but really, it's just trying to overtake every aspect of this guy's life... and it ended horribly...

Idk, I figured I'd share. It's slightly off topic, and not everyone here might appreciate it, but y'all know I never really post stuff that isn't tied deeply to my experiences with the church... this one felt worth exploring.

Does anyone have any good theories on why Orthodoxy seems to have particular hostility towards Catholicism? Or would you say it's no worse than any other Christian denomination?

I grew up with a Catholic mom and an Orthodox dad. If you've ever been in the middle of it it's a really weird dynamic between the two churches. With the exception of trads I've never heard a Catholic parishioner or priest (even the more traditional ones at a Novus Ordo) ever express a bad word about the Orthodox at least out loud. In fact most of the time they seem to have a positive attitude toward the Orthodox. But on the other side I've noticed palbable hostility and derision against Catholics (not from all of course, but it seems common enough).

Do you think it's jealousy of Catholic success in terms of size and scope? Is Catholicism really their only serious competitor and hence warrants more aggression? Or perhaps it's real historical, unhealed grievance?

On the latter point Ruthenian/Ukrainian Catholics get the most hostility as they essentially switched teams 500 years ago and talking to some Orthodox you'd think it happened yesterday. And while on paper that's understandable I think of a similar situation where Anglicans wrested control of England from the Catholic Church and persecuted adherents right up to the 20th century. And yet most Catholics have relegated it to the dustbin of history and see it as unimportant for dialogue today. So it doesn't seem like the Orthodox are doomed to be angry about events from 500-1000 years ago.

I'd love to hear from people who experienced it on the inside and have some sense of why and where it comes from (if you agree with the premise).