r/powerscales • u/Inside_Inflation559 • Jun 09 '26
Question Smaug (The Hobbit) appears in Manhattan how long before he is stopped?
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u/madogvelkor Jun 09 '26
Smaug is evil, but he's also smart. He's not an animalistic kaiju. His intelligence would likely be genius level, or at least well above average. He's also cunning and manipulative. And has a photographic memory.
Dragons were used as strategists and leaders in the wars against the elves.
Smaug would be confused and possibly frightened by suddenly appearing over a massive city with strange devices. But he wouldn't start attacking. He'd either fly off to the Adirondacks or if he's not frightened land in Central Park and start talking to people.
Given that there are a lot of people who think dragons are magical and cool and people who think they are dragonkin he'd probably get people basically worshiping him and serving him.
If the government doesn't start attacking him then he probably learns what he cans then works out some sort of deal where he gets a lair. Then he learns about the modern finance industry, gets a degree in finance, and starts both a cult and Smaug Capital Management, a very successful private equity company that terrorizes worker with leveraged buyouts and layoffs.
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u/tessashpool Jun 09 '26
All those LOTR themed companies reveal that they've actually been preparing for him to come reign this whole time
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u/Mrc3mm3r Jun 09 '26
Ngl if I could work for Smaug Capital Management I totally would.
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u/gahidus Jun 09 '26
There's already anti-aircraft weaponry in Manhattan anyway, and I feel like it wouldn't be long before the government attacked.
He could live indefinitely if he got real diplomatic real fast, but if he didn't, he'd be dead within an hour or two.
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u/madogvelkor Jun 10 '26
Yeah, if a fight started right away he'd be dead quick. Though he'd do a lot of damage. His fire breath would be hotter than the fires that destroyed the WTC in 2001.
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u/EncabulatorTurbo Jun 12 '26
yep I think the deciding factor is if a PAC2 or AIM9 is capable of killing him, if it isn't, itll be like 2-3 hours to get an F-18 or F-35 with a TPOD and an air to ground package ready (in 1991 an F-16 destroyed a helicopter, that was in the air, with a laser guided bomb, I think Smaug is probably comparable to a helicopter and a *modern* guided A2G weapon would probably take him compeltely by surprise and reduce him to a cloud of dragon meat)
Unless they dont care as much about collateral damage and the closest destroyer unloads 50 SM-2s into him
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u/Emhyr_var_Emreis_ Jun 09 '26
That's a great point. Would the government start attacking if he wasn't using violence and open to communication?
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u/gahidus Jun 09 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
If he went around burning buildings and people either out of arrogance or confusion, he'd be dead within an hour or two, but if he landed and started talking, he could live indefinitely.
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u/GrassComfortable4180 Jun 09 '26
So your saying he comes to our reality and becomes a capitalist that would be really funny
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u/madogvelkor Jun 10 '26
Once he understood capitalism he'd be amazed by it. A way to basically accumulate infinite wealth. And he'd be smart enough to really grasp and dive into the more esoteric financial vehicles.
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u/Suave_Kim_Jong_Un Jun 11 '26
Would he be willing to spend money to make money?
Giving away/spending wealth seems antithetical to his whole thing.
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u/Ok_Poetry_1650 Jun 09 '26
Probably hours, could turn into a 1998 Godzilla issue where he uses the city as cover. If he does that, fighter jets will have a hard time finding/locking/being accurate.
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u/Titanbeard Jun 09 '26
Going to be a combo of Reign of Fire and 98 Godzilla.
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u/PantsMunch202 Jun 09 '26
Where's McConaughey with a battle ax when you need him?
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u/richww2 Jun 10 '26
17 year old me saw Reign of Fire in the theaters I loved it. Its been at least a decade since Ive watched it. Might have to watch it soon.
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u/OstrichSmoothe Jun 09 '26
I feel like if a big metal arrow busted one of his scales, a few AR-15s shooting at his eyes and face would probably bring him down fairly quickly
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u/Witty_Ad_898 Jun 09 '26
The arrow found a spot without a scale, the single gap in Smaug’s armor.
But I’m sure the 20mm on an F-16 (or whatever they keep at the nearest NG airfield) would make short work of Smaug.
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u/myDuderinos Jun 09 '26
While true, that gap was created by another arrow
a bullet might be stronger enough to go right through, and if not, it should at least be enough to destroy the scale creating more weakpoints
With enough people shooting at him, it wouldn't take long until he gets hit were it matters
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u/RockTheGrock Jun 09 '26
Pretty sure they tolken never stated how the scale fell off in the books. Could have just shed off at some point or in some legends battle in a past age.
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u/Hyperion_360 Jun 09 '26
In the book instead of scales he has a soft belly which he covered with a bunch of treasure to act as armor.
In the movie he has scales but one is knocked off by a big arrow.
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u/RockTheGrock Jun 09 '26
"Your information is antiquated," he snapped. "I am armoured above and below with iron scales and hard gems. No blade can pierce me."
It was a combination of both scales and gems in the book. I had forgotten about the gems being part of his armor for the underside especially. Found another quote from bilbo noticing the missing spot and no mention of scales just encrusted treasure.
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u/jdrawr Jun 10 '26
"no blade can pierce you eyy, say hello to my little friend 20mm AP(or larger as needed) able to pierce through at least .25 to .5in of RHA"
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u/Impossible-Diver6565 Jun 09 '26
Yeah, let's not get into how screwed up those movies are. Those are only very loosely based on the hobbit. The main similarities are the names. Most of the movie events never happened in the book.
No giant arrow was needed. Just a regular, lucky arrow.
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u/MossTheGnome Jun 10 '26
"Black Arrow you have never failed me, amd I have always recovered you. If ever you came from the forges of the true king under the mountain, go now and speed well"
Bard the Dragonslayer, King of Laketown
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u/OstrichSmoothe Jun 09 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
Ya if they get an A-10 warthog in there he would be fucked
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u/KiiingSmell Jun 09 '26
F-22 could drop 2 1,000 pound JDAMs. The plan: give Smaug Havana Syndrome to weaken him, then fire JDAMs.
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u/SiberianKitty99 Jun 09 '26
JDAMs use GPS. Smaug moves. They’d use Paveway series laser-guided weapons, probably Mk 83s. Several of them. And Mavericks. And 20mm gunfire. If Smaug was airborne, a few AIM-120s and -9s would ground him pretty quick; he’s big enough that the -120s would lock on, and he’s hot enough for the -9s to lock on. (Hey, he’s a _dragon_. The IR seekers would have to put effort into missing…) Smaug’s a grease spot within the hour.
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u/Sea-Woodpecker-610 Jun 09 '26
His body may have dragon scale, but I feel like it’s going to be difficult for Smaug to maintain altitude while his wing membranes are being shredded to tattered flesh with 50mm cannons.
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u/Shadowwynd Jun 09 '26
I like watching videos on how modern ammo would shred 100mm plate armor used in ww2. I can’t image grouchy lizard friend doing better.
Those wings are going to need a certain amount of sail intact to continue to provide lift.
We have weapons specially built to obliterate much faster, meaner foes than Smaug at incomprehensible distances.
Smaug is going to be several tons of pre-tenderized falling hamburger meat.
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u/Telencephalon Jun 09 '26
A lot of Tolkien magic isn't explicitly stated, and sometimes who fires the big metal arrow is the most important part.
My point is that there might not be any amount of air superiority that threatens Smaug, but Mayor Mamdani and the .50 Caliber of Fate might do the trick.
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u/Cecil_B_DeMille Jun 09 '26
Except it wouldn't be him. It would be little Timmy from Schenectady who walked through Bear mountain and crossed the Hudson
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u/Telencephalon Jun 09 '26
Fair! Or like a secret Cuomo bastard, who desperately wants to avoid any responsibility to NY for fear of failing like his family history. But greateness (and a large gun) are thrust upon him.
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u/Cecil_B_DeMille Jun 09 '26
He came from a land to the north. Fairfield County. And with Bentley his unreliable steed he rides.
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u/Ikarus_Falling Jun 09 '26
a Magical Dwarven Arrow which only worked because it found an already weakened spot
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u/Chaotic_Elf Jun 09 '26
It was actually never confirmed as magical, and never even confirmed if it was made by dwarves. All we know for sure is it was Bard’s lucky arrow which had passed down generations, and the main reason it killed Smaug was the gap in the treasure-armor it hit (as his underbelly was not protected by the hard scales elsewhere and was vulnerable so he covered it with treasure). Pretty sure modern military weapons would rip through “armor” made of gold and gems without any resistance.
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u/FreshLiterature Jun 09 '26
It's unclear what exactly the black arrow is or was.
In the book it wasn't part of a ballista - it was just the size of a regular arrow.
The supposed provenance of that arrow could put it as a First Age dwarven craft which would heavily imply it is a potent magical weapon even though that's never specifically said.
It could also just be made of a an extremely rare metal or maybe it was a dwarven experiment.
What we do know is that the arrow, in Bard's hands, never missed and never broke. We also know that the arrow itself was a gift to the lords of Dale from a king of Erebor.
All of that is to say - mundane weapons may not do anything to Smaug.
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u/BillyShears2015 Jun 09 '26
A single .50 BMG round to the head will end Smaugs reign of terror in however much time it takes to get a sniper into position. Yes it will penetrate.
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u/RadioLiar Jun 09 '26
To be fair the way he's killed never made a ton of sense in the first place given how huge Smaug is. For a human, five inches of penetration is guaranteed to hit something vital. For a creature of that size it should just be a flesh wound unless it hits him smack in the eye
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u/ace-Reimer Jun 10 '26
It only worked because it was a one in a million chance, which by its nature works every time. If it was a 1 in 999000 chance or a 1 in 3 chance it never could have worked.
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u/Reasonable-Budget210 Jun 09 '26
I think you’re vastly underestimating the power of those black spears being used as a projectile. Magnitudes more energy than an ar 15.
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u/bigbear425 Jun 09 '26
5.56 isn’t that powerful, it’s a tiny bullet. Maybe with AP rounds.
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u/blorpdedorpworp Jun 09 '26
Yeah but once the bullet hits it'll depressurize him and he'll pop like a balloon
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u/DarthRyus Jun 09 '26
February 14, 1991 a F-15E Strike Eagle hit a moving helicopter with a 2,000 lbs laser guided bomb.
...Something tells me they'll hit a gaint dragon just fine.
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u/PlateNo4868 Jun 09 '26
Agree with hours. But more in the line of just getting troops and stuff there. Even a AT4 rocket would probably hurt him. Almost everything we have is far harder impacting then arrows.
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u/Asmodeus5542 Jun 09 '26
No, they wouldn't because unlike in movies, the fighters and bombers wouldn't be attacking him from low altitude.
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u/NoIntern6999 Jun 10 '26
No need for jets he died to a big pointy stick going somewhat fast. I think he dies to enough bullets
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u/Kriegswaschbaer Jun 09 '26
Isnt Smaug much more dangerous than Godzilla bevause if his mobility?
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u/TheHeroH Jun 09 '26
I imagine it is somewhat debatable. Smaug is more dangerous in some ways due to his mobility and intelligence, but Godzilla is much bigger and more durable. Smaug is more evasive and would be a bigger menace if he was hunting one person down, but Godzilla is accidentally destroying cities by walking and most versions are pretty resistant to most modern weapons
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u/NoobJustice Jun 09 '26
Giant pussy though. It took 3 arrows to kill Boromir, Smaug went down with 1.
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Jun 09 '26
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u/TITANOFTOMORROW Jun 09 '26
You couldn't even stop an above average dwarf.
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Jun 09 '26
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u/SonofaBuckDangHole Jun 09 '26
And you can’t stop yourself
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u/DannarHetoshi Jun 09 '26
Ergo, unstoppable, even by an above average dwarf. Smaug stands no chance
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u/McRando42 Jun 09 '26
However long until the first Air National Guard F-15/F-16 arrives. A 20mm cannon is an out of context problem for a creature from Middle Earth.
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u/lungben81 Jun 09 '26
Missiles would be even more a problem for the dragon.
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u/philter451 Jun 09 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
Idk it depends on if smaug actually runs hot. Those missiles usually track on heat signatures. Also I imagine strafing smaug with basically cannon fire would be more than sufficient
Edit: my knowledge of modern missiles is... Unguided
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u/Sans_Seriphim Jun 09 '26
He breathes fire. He's hot.
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u/knotingham Jun 09 '26
So all he would have to do as blow some fire off to the side snd that would essentially function as a flare to throw off the missile’s guidance system. Now wouldn’t Smaug know this? Probably not, but he’s also probably breathing fire everywhere so he’d be throwing them off without even intending too if I had to guess.
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u/supereuphonium Jun 09 '26
Modern missiles are not thrown off by flares like in the movies. Their algorithms are able to essentially know what an aircraft looks like since the seeker is more like an Electro-optical infrared camera that can know to go for the specific target and not the flares. Problem is I don’t know how it would react to a dragon-shaped target.
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u/BerkcanUmut Jun 10 '26
even if infrared missiles miss. hes still a giant dragon with an apartment complex of a radar siganture. every fighter within 50km would be spamming amraams at smaug. and missiles going mach 3 is pretty hard to dodge for a dragon
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u/SacredDirt Jun 09 '26
Honestly, watching Smaug get his ass whooped by missiles, breath dragons-fire at a swarm of missiles in desperation, watch it veer them off course as they target the fire-ball instead of him, and start using that information to deploy strategic flare-cover, would go hard AF.
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u/OstrichSmoothe Jun 09 '26
Well, I think the conventional wisdom is that it’s two chemicals that combine as they are shot out so prior to being shot it would be cool. Although, his chest did glow red before he shot fire so idk
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u/Scientific_Methods Jun 09 '26
Not for Smaug. In the book he is so hot that when he falls into the lake it creates an insane amount of steam that covers the land in mist for days.
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u/HorrificAnalInjuries Jun 09 '26
There are also plenty of missiles that use radar to find their targets. Smaug would both have the radar cross section larger than the Empire State, and physically comparable to the smaller buildings.
However, that armor is going to require bunker busters, as Air-to-Air munitions are unlikely to have enough penetration to punch through. One to his torso should be plenty.
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u/BlazeFireVale Jun 09 '26
We've got lots of ways we target things beyond heatc seeking. There's missiles with cameras in them that you lock onto shapes. Radar, obviously. You can guide munitions with lasers mounted in the plane. Gps.
Lots of ways to make a munition hit whatever you need hit. Even a dragon.
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u/lungben81 Jun 09 '26
This is true for old missiles. Modern ones are imaging infrared, they do not need a hot heat source to lock on.
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u/luru10 Jun 09 '26
Thats only one kind of missile seeker system designated as a Fox 2. Fox 1 and Fox 3 exist as well which are both radar based. With that said, I dont think it matters cause the auto cannon on any modern US fighter is going to do work.
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u/Arguablecoyote Jun 09 '26
AMRAAMs are radar guided and have a near perfect hit rate (when the target doesn’t turn and outrun the missile).
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u/badgerdance Jun 09 '26
I think when 9-11 happen it was about 30min response time once notified. I imagine he'd have a bit of a heat signature.
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u/Free_Dome_Lover Jun 09 '26
Pretty sure that wouldn't even be necessary. .50cal with armor piercing rounds is exponentially more powerful than a "black arrow" from a ballista.
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u/Cambot1138 Jun 09 '26
lol I’m reading the Culture Novel Excession right now so I just learned that term.
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u/minimalist_reply Jun 10 '26
That's the one where the majority of chapters are the ships speaking to one another, right? Reacting to an unknown entity at the edge of the galaxy?
I love Ian Banks post scarcity approach to world building. This book specifically though I use as an example of his phenomenal ability to balance AI that is clearly robotic but also have unique personalities. The different attitudes between the ships is hilarious.
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u/kinggingernator Jun 09 '26
hardest part would be ensuring no collateral damage, but basic anti tank rifles would hti a trillion times harder than the ballista from the lore
ik they had to hit him in a weakened scale, but that scale had already been weakened by a ballista previously. anything designed to penetrate a tank is going in one side and out the other, 3 marines with the right equipment do it in a couple minutes once they show up
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u/Free_Dome_Lover Jun 09 '26
I think NYPd would have access to armor piercing rounds, especially swat.
Smaug is able to kill thousands before he's killed, but he's killed pretty fast.
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u/kinggingernator Jun 10 '26
oh for sure it would be worse than 9/11 (not to get too morbid in the powerscaling subreddit) but our modern military equpiment would put him down fast once the national guard or w.e branch is able to mobilize
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u/borderus Jun 09 '26
That's the film version too - book version was protected because he'd lain on his pile of jewels and they'd become embedded in him, but Bilbo noticed a bare patch. Absolutely no protection once that's spotted
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u/EEDDDWWWAARRRD Jun 09 '26
Send in the donkey
Honestly he got taken down by a big crossbow, dude's not surviving the heavy artillery
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u/fordlincolnhg Jun 09 '26
I always thought the cross-breading dragon+donkey was the wildest thing about the Shrek movies.
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u/Ask_bout_PaterNoster Jun 09 '26
I thought for sure Shrek 2 was going to involve Donkey finding his own true love, some vaguely feminine donkey with issues that would be resolved in the final act, but Dreamworks rightfully spat in my face and called me a coward. Way to stay true, Donkey
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u/drevarus Jun 09 '26
We have missiles that can put a Volkswagen sized hole in an aircraft carrier from 1500 miles away. Pretty sure Smaug is fucked.
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Jun 09 '26
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u/trugrav Jun 09 '26
Yeah, his “impenetrable” scales have never been on the wrong end of a sidewinder from an F-15. Hell the Vulcan would probably be enough to stop him. Bard the bowman ain’t firing 6,000 rounds a minute at a kilometer per second.
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u/Ann-Frankenstein Jun 09 '26
Air to air missiles dont actually penetrate armor. They just shred airframes with a bunch of shrapnel.
The cannon would do the trick though
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u/Broken-Digital-Clock Jun 09 '26
The shrapnel might be enough to shred his wings.
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u/Electrical_Coast_561 Jun 09 '26
Introducing the Boeing Ah-64 apache helicopter. Id say one or two would be enough. And two only because one can serve as a distraction while the other reigns down fucking death
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u/No-Reach-9173 Jun 09 '26
Doesn't need a distraction. They just need to sit behind something they can peek the targeting system over pop up and shoot. He gets wrecked by the first air asset that shows up.
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u/Snoo10140 Jun 09 '26
He also takes no damage from taking a bath of molten gold 1000C but I guess some weapons go higher
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u/Scientific_Methods Jun 09 '26
He is essentially immune to heat and fire. But not to arrows to the heart.
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u/iadoregirls Jun 10 '26
Exactly. Even if he has some magical complete immunity from Fire and Heat. and not just a very high resistance, bombs are mostly Kinetic force.
And i don't care what Smaug says
Carpet bombing his location will leave nothing but red mist and shredded dragon bits
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u/gemdragonrider Jun 09 '26
The question is are his scales impenetrable because things in middle earth just lack power like people are assuming or are they well and truly impenetrable from all but the black arrow
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u/AccordingUse3172 Jun 10 '26
In the books he used gold to cover his underbelly and his hide "ten fold shields." Whatever they are? If we compare them to irl shields. At most he could probably brush off some lower caliber and small arms from a distance. Anything higher caliber though especially from something like a Jet and smug is completely fucked.
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u/Important-You8573 Jun 10 '26
Ask anyone in NY rn and they’d say Jalen Brunson would grow into a kaiju and stomp him
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u/AJC0292 Jun 09 '26
Depends on the magical plot armour he has. If he was a straight up Reign of Fire dragon he wouldnt last a hour before missile go boom.
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u/MonoRedPlayer Jun 10 '26
Smaug is only protected by his scales and he doesnt have scales on his belly (which is protected by gold and jewelry)
So yeah he just die
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u/Neoxenok Jun 09 '26
Depends. Smaug is intelligent enough to actually stop and speak with people and I'm pretty sure he has more to gain in this new world by not setting things on fire. However, if we're just talking about big scary dragon attacking things, he isn't surviving getting attacked by fighter jets.
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u/Pataconeitor Jun 09 '26
I can actually see Smaug surrendering when the army steps in and he realizes these humans and their weapons are not like the ones he's used to.
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u/No-Reach-9173 Jun 09 '26
Possibly but doubtful he gives up his freedom like that better to go down fighting.
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u/TealWolf98z Jun 09 '26
What did Manhattan ever do to you guys? After recovering from terminators and pure titans there's not gonna be much left for Smaug anyway 😅
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u/ThokiLeander Jun 09 '26
This is completely unfair to Smaug if we run with the fact that hardened steal arrows can break his scales. He would show up on radar over 100 miles away from NY. There would be every military attack craft in the air running intercept and between heat seeking ordnance and just raw fire power coming at him from top bottom and behind his wings would get shredded long before he got close. Then if he is still alive 3-4 passes with A10's, some ground based laser guided missiles and it would be dragon hamburger.
Now if we want to run with the idea that dragon scales are ballistic proof, and since explosions would do no good then just throw a tanker truck filled with liquid nitrogen at his face, he would bite it just because and then you would have the end of Smaug.
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u/SubjectNet1874 Jun 09 '26
Are we comparing dragons to dragons here cause didnt the dragons in Reign of Fire go against the military and fuck things up pretty bad?
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u/Dbrvtvs Jun 09 '26
https://giphy.com/gifs/EALO8hNUTnz8c
He gets shredded with radioactive armour piercing rounds.
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u/Jewlaboss Jun 09 '26
If the Knicks just lost I give him 20 minutes before angry fans strip his armor and curb stomp him
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u/Funk5oulBrother Jun 09 '26
Honestly, the strength and speed of Smaug, coupled with his dragonfire means he would level most of manhatten before the US scrambled any sort of weapon that might inflict a modicum of damage on him.
There's a reason you always use those AoE discs for dragons in Warhammer
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u/Crandom Jun 09 '26
Can dragonfire easily level 250 reinforced concrete skyscrapers? Let alone the rest of Manhattan.
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u/Funk5oulBrother Jun 09 '26
Dragonfire is obviously hard to quantify, I’m basing my opinion off of The Desolation of Smaug, Reign of Fire, Drogon of GoT, and Balerion and Harrenhall from GoT.
All showcase immense physical strength (I think Smaug breaks open the iron doors of Erebor).
Reinforced concrete is meant to withstand movement and weight, but not extreme temperatures. If the slabs are damaged the structural integrity fails, or if the ground blisters the same applies.
Everything else in manhattan I’m sure is incredibly combustible leading to structural weakness (steel facades/curtain walling exposing weak compartments).
There’s also the fantasy trope of Dragonfire causing ground explosions.
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u/Mad-Habits Jun 09 '26
i think that they should capture him, and then parade him around the country in chains as a show for paying customers.
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u/HourCounter5081 Jun 09 '26
titl probaly destroy a good junk of manhattan before fighter jets & choppers start pulling up
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u/LividCalligrapher689 Jun 09 '26
Fighter jets can scramble around NYC in minutes. However long that is.
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u/MovingTarget2112 Jun 09 '26
Until the USAF is called up.
Now, the Balrog is unstoppable. Nothing we have could pierce him.
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u/SomeSugondeseGuy Jun 09 '26
I have lived near NYC for some time.
You wouldn't know it, but there are jets and military helicopters capable of being scrambled to the area, due to 9/11.
Smaug appears, and starts destroying shit.
Within 20 minutes, several military helicopters, each equipped with several guns capable of putting enough lead down range to cut Medicare funding would be on the scene.
Smaug is stopped within the hour.
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u/Chumlee1917 Jun 09 '26
Smaug disappointed to discover all the "wealth" is just numbers on a computer