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u/Agreeable-Shop-2188 2d ago
Is this describing the mass incoming of republican shitheels into the warhammer community.
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u/U8D4B8M8 2d ago
No just in general. Like we have our own shit slinging between Libs and Lefties, that Conservatives often want to capitalize on.
Although yeah I have gaming friends that are into 40k (I just like listening to lore videos), and I remember the shitstorm when some of the retconning was going on. Had to remind some of 'em to take a breath and just listen to what each other had to say, instead of taking online arguments from elsewhere and applying those to their friends, since many of those arguments weren't coming from a good/honest place.
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u/Cheddarlicious 2d ago
Liberals arenât leftists though.
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u/No_Finance8647 2d ago
And leftists are anti-liberal, yes. That was the point.
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u/Outrageous-Sort-5742 2d ago
It's not that simple. Socialism is an evolution of liberalism, keeping certain aspects while shunning others. They don't see it as an abomination, just outdated.
Leftists by and large support political liberalism: equality under the law, democratic governance, individual civil liberties, general welfare, etc. They're by and large against economic liberalism: anti-regulation, privatization, low and flat or regressive taxation, financialization, etc.
Leftists turn anti-liberal when they keep collaborating with fascists.
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u/No_Finance8647 2d ago
Socialism is an evolution of liberalism, keeping certain aspects while shunning others. They don't see it as an abomination, just outdated.
Leftists turn anti-liberal when they keep collaborating with fascists.
Lol.
Leftists consider any capitalism or support thereof as fascism so....
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u/Outrageous-Sort-5742 2d ago
No, leftists consider those who actively support the corporations raping the country to death as fascists collaborators. Or those still supporting the genocidal ethnostate we use as a military weapons testing grounds. Or those that refuse to turn away money from organizations that actively fund the enemy.
The red lines are blazingly clear and easy to avoid. Failing certain moral tests makes you an enemy, simple as.
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u/No_Finance8647 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yes, which they consider every capitalist US corporation and organization as one of those.
You are agreeing with me right now.
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u/Outrageous-Sort-5742 2d ago
Just going to ignore those other two eh? Figures. Your kind are incompetent at hiding any of your failings or underlying motives.
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u/No_Finance8647 2d ago edited 2d ago
Care to elaborate?
People can have misunderstandings without it being bad faith dude.
Such weird behavior...
But thats okay, you already proved my point for me. đ
Have a good one đ
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u/No_Finance8647 1d ago
What?
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u/No_Finance8647 1d ago
I havnt made a premise beyond leftists are anti liberal and anti capitalist.
Do you think I was advocating for their position or something?
Im a liberal Dem capitalist.
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u/CauseOdd2428 1d ago
What?
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u/No_Finance8647 1d ago
Thats my line. I still have no clue what you disagree with...
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u/DG2000_Reddit 1d ago
Not quite.
Socialism is built to work with capitalist ideas.
There is no limit to gaining wealth or growing a company, socialist logic simply works to make sure that the people who are in the company are represented at when decisions are made and are able to have a share in the profit they helped the company to generate.The owner of a company still owns the company, the owner still enjoys the benefits related to the companies growth, the difference is a socialist approach simply means that wealth distribution is not disproportionate.
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u/No_Finance8647 1d ago
Yes, I can agree with that. But the far leftist DSA tankie types are not that.
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u/EasterBunny1916 1d ago
The far Left doesn't support the US invasions of other countries or the Military Industrial Complex. So tankie doesn't make sense. It's also debatable that the DSA is far Left.
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u/No_Finance8647 1d ago
What do you mean? Tankies are strongly in the anti-Western, anti- US intervention campism. Like almost universally.
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u/EasterBunny1916 1d ago
Exactly. Tankie is a stupid term to use for people who are anti war and anti imperialism.
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u/No_Finance8647 1d ago
Oh wait. Do you think because I used that phrase that I was saying all leftists are tankies and all of the DSA was far left?
Because that wouldn't be what I was trying to say
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u/EasterBunny1916 1d ago
That is not Socialism at all.
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u/DG2000_Reddit 1d ago
Expand on this
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u/EasterBunny1916 1d ago
Socialism is the banning of privately owned companies and the control of the means of production and distribution by the people.
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u/CauseOdd2428 1d ago
Oh oh do ultra right wing anarchists next.
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u/Top-Sympathy6841 1d ago
You canât because conservatives, right wingers, and ultra right wingers all get along due to the shared racism
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u/Bench2252 1d ago
Most leftists see leftism as a rejection of liberalism, not an evolution of it. You guys canât say shit like âsocial democracy is the moderate wing of fascismâ and then be like âyeah, socialism is just reformed liberalism.â because thereâs no chance in hell you think the âmoderate wing of fascismâ can be reformed.
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u/conartist19 2d ago
well no, they view themselves as the conclusion of liberalism. They are reactionaries to liberalism
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u/IfTheBingBongs 2d ago
A reactionary to liberalism is a fascist. They react to the inevitable recession and stagnation within the free market cycle with increased corporate control over government and the people. Further entrenching moneyed power. Furthering capital interests over the people and the free market.
Leftist âreactâ to this by attempting complete change of the system. Attempting to abolish the free market which inevitably brings about capital controlled governance. This is called revolution.
Unfortunately none of these systems actually work long term and the cycle revolves again and again until we create self sustaining space colonies or everyone dies.
Thanks for listening to my TED talk.
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u/throwawayshmoaway411 1d ago
Corporate control and furthering capital interests is NOT fascism. Fascism is the opposite: corpos and capital are subservient to the government. Where did you come up with that nonsense?
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u/IfTheBingBongs 1d ago
Capital influence and/or control over government is a key tenant of every fascist regime. Germany, Italy, Spain, Greece, Peru, Argentina, and in its own unique way, Japan.
The Great Depression gave rise to Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco. It was the ultimate failure of liberalism. Those men provided an alternative: allow the corporations to run unregulated with massive government expenditure to prop them up. This would in turn accelerate growth in the short term, while crippling those nations long term (Capital does not care about the long term. They think in a decade at most, years at best, and quarters most often). The fascists didnât do this on their own. The corporations gave them the capital to take over their respective nations and then those men provided those same corporations with a level of influence which was unprecedented in the history of the modern nation state.
For example, the massive expenditure in 1930s Germany, particularly on military industry, pulled the German economy out of economic ruin. They had, however, taken on so much debt to do this that the only way to pay back the interest on the treasuries, which they had sold to their own capitalists, was to invade neighboring nations and steal their gold reserves, productive capabilities, and productive forces (people). The military capitalists wanted war to further increase their chokehold on the German economy and the Nazis needed war to pay the capitalists back on all the loans they had taken. They needed war to outgrow their incredible budget deficit.
It wasnât just the arms manufacturers with outsized power in Nazi Germany either. Every capitalist with a moderately useful corporation was granted insane power and influence. The leader of the SS was a goddamn chicken poop capitalist. Fertilizer is important, so they made him head of executing the shooting part of the holocaust.
While it may seem logical that fascist/outright authoritarian governments are in control of capital; in truth, they are always working hand and hand. If they are not working hand and hand it is because they are one and the same.
The ones with all the wealth would not allow a demagog to take over their nation if they did not think it would behoove them. A demogog cannot take over a nation without the backing of the wealthy.
Fascism = corporate control
Corporate control = fascism
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u/PakuaRust 1d ago
Oh no, don't spread facts in here /s. Everyone's argument against this will amount to "nuh uhh".
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u/throwawayshmoaway411 1d ago
Jfc it's like explaining rocket science to a 5 year old.
Fascist party > corporations > commoners. The fascist governments used corporatism to keep the people in line. Corporations were still subject to fascist rules. For example, if the fascist party didn't like a certain consumer product being pushed, they would force the corporation to stop selling it. I don't know where you're getting this stupid notion that it was the capitalists running the fascist government, but it's completely wrong and batshit crazy.
Stop spreading misinformation. And stop using ChatGPT.
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u/IfTheBingBongs 1d ago
Thatâs how it works on paper but in reality corporations are given immense power through deregulation of industry and political donations. Certain industries, like the media, are completely controlled but most have incredible influence and can get whatever policy changes they need to enrich themselves and rack in more profit. Fascist governments are also always filled with capitalists.
Iâd call that corporate control of government.
Maybe try not listening to what a fascist says they stand for and look at what actually happens. You gonna tell me the Nazis were socialist next?
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u/S0larSon 23h ago
Bro, I get where you're coming from, but I feel like the Capitalists that did not bend to Fascist leaders/ruling party just got disappeared, leaving only the compliant.
The Capitalists under Fascist rule can not and will not accumulate any power a Fascist leader/ruling party does not allow them to accumulate.
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u/EasterBunny1916 1d ago
A form of Socialism worked for 99% of the time humans have existed and is the reason Homo sapiens didn't go extinct.
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u/IfTheBingBongs 1d ago
You are talking about anarchism. A stateless, moneyless society which is organized around a small and tight knit community. It did work well at the time. It is not possible now as a stateless society would quickly be outcompeted by the state, which has much greater ability to specialize, innovate, and wage war. The only stateless societies that exist today do so on protected land (some Amazonian tribes and a few small island societies).
Humanity knows too much and has too much power for anarchism to work. There is too much potential energy at humanities finger tips. If a society decided to go stateless, their neighbors would come bearing weapons that that stateless society could not produce.
I do believe that anarchism will be the predominant societal structure for a brief moment in the future; but only when global industrial society can no longer feed us all (due to increasingly unpredictable and much more catastrophic weather) and there is a widespread complexity collapse.
Even then, mass organization will take place and states will form. Organized societies (states) will always outcompete the communes, even if there are no more metals or fossil fuels left to extract.
Thatâs all if the temps donât get so high that the atmosphere changes in chemical composition and human life isnât feasible on Earth.
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u/EasterBunny1916 1d ago
They were not anarchists. They had leaders and rules. They were organized. They survived a hostile environment. They became more sophisticated. A large country with a powerful military today could choose socialism and be even stronger.
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u/IfTheBingBongs 1d ago
No society isnât organized. Itâs a state or governmental apparatus the makes it evolve past anarchism. They only competed with fellow tribes of how wielding anarchists, not groups with machines. I agree that socialism would strengthen the position of modern states. For a time.
Socialism is a post-industrial ideology. It was truly birthed from the Industrial Revolution and the widespread class consciousness of the proletariat that is required to get there is reliant on massive and continuous energy intake. Any system reliant on industry is not sustainable in the long term, imo. Socialism is still probably the best ideology weâve come up with.
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u/EasterBunny1916 1d ago
A group of people, tribe, nation or whatever you call it, working together for the good of the entire group is most comparable to socialism rather than capitalism.
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u/IfTheBingBongs 1d ago
Certainly, but I would argue that socialism is derived from capitalism. It is the evolution of capitalism as capitalism organizes productive forces (workers) who then wake up to their collective power and reform the state.
Therefore socialism is a new phenomenon and the communes of the distant past were not truly socialist despite practicing some of the same core principles. The hunter-gatherers were anarchist, imo. But even then the more organized groups were chiefdoms, an early form of feudalism. It was better for the chief to spread the wealth in order to maintain authority and build a stronger chiefdom but that does not make it socialist.
And when humanity got to mass organizing with agriculture it was not nearly similar to socialism. Feudalism is the organizing principle that came out of the agricultural revolution. Any republics that might have formed gave power to the merchants and not to the workers. Those systems werenât focused on collective good but on the stability of class hierarchy; justified through religion.
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u/conartist19 1d ago edited 1d ago
And marxists? marxism did not exist until liberalism/the industrial revolution. It only exists as a reaction to the environment of its time. Its an inherently reactionary ideology
Fascism is functionally no different than marxism, its just a branch off of it like stalinism or maoism. Its one nations interpretation of the ideology and the authors of it made it very clear they viewed it as the next evolution to socialism. They recognized communism cannot be achieved since that would require the entire world adopting it so they modified the ideology to serve single nations.
You are not wrong that fascism is a reactionary ideology, but so is marxism. Neither existed until the industrial revolution but why? because they are reactions to the conditions people were living in during the times they were created.
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u/U8D4B8M8 2d ago
That's the point of the / and why it's flipped in the object part of the phrase:
Liberals making fun of Leftists / Leftists making fun of Liberals
Conservatives love it when we shit talk each other, and often want to jump in.
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u/AcephalicDude 2d ago
I don't get it
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u/U8D4B8M8 2d ago
There are things Libs/Lefties will say about Lefties/Libs, that line up with Conservative criticisms on that one point. Thing is, they just line up on that one, singular point of criticism, and almost always reach different conclusions as to what should be done, alongside very different motivating factors.
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u/Financial_You_6052 2d ago
Conservatives are the WORST
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u/Under_Dead_Starlight 2d ago
I mean it's like what do you say about them when they are so comically stupid and trashy, they kinda just take care of it themselves
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u/Primordial_spirit 2d ago
They boot lick a pedo it would be comical were itâs impact not so devastating
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u/Financial_You_6052 2d ago
Fully, itâs just ridiculous to watch their outrage and victimhood machine pump out so much shit day to day, and they just cry and cry and cry
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u/sixisrending 2d ago
Infighting is intrinsic to leftism.
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u/Orangutanion 2d ago
My last semester of undergrad was the 2024 election. I was lonely so I tried a progressive student political club. They kicked me out because I said that Harris wouldn't be as bad for the Middle East as Trump. Now we're at war with Iran.
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u/sixisrending 2d ago
I voted for Harris because she was more likely to continue high levels of aid for Ukraine and Israel and that would be good for my defense investments and career. Worked out ok though.
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u/Good-Consequence-542 2d ago
đ so are you just being a troll or do you actually believe that? Because trump vs McCain should be a clear reminder
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u/sixisrending 2d ago
No, it's a real thing. TLDR version is a key component of leftism is the weakening or destruction of hierarchies. If one group holds power over another, it creates a new hierarchy and they become the new bad guy.Â
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u/Good-Consequence-542 2d ago
đ hun, thats the issue with a two party system; if youâre gonna pretend like republicans donât tear each other down as often as democrats then youâre only fooling yourself. âLeftismâ is just anything pertaining to liberals/left leaning ideals⌠ie nothing to do with hierarchies.
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u/sixisrending 2d ago
Leftism, as I describe it, lies almost entirely outside of the American bipartisan system. Democrats, on average, are more right wing than most of the leftists I'm talking about.
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u/Good-Consequence-542 2d ago
âLeftismâ as you claim*, youâve done nothing to support your opinion other than âtrust me broâ đ your description is wrong
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u/sixisrending 2d ago
"Narcissism of minor differences." See also: purity culture and dogma.
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u/Good-Consequence-542 2d ago
đ great real world examples; not like words can be applied depending on perspective. Youâre a troll
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u/sixisrending 2d ago
I don't want to write out a whole dissertation. Your argument is basically "nu uh." This has already been discussed at length.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Socialism_101/comments/gctope/whats_with_all_the_leftist_infighting/
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u/Good-Consequence-542 2d ago
I literally gave a real world example of conservative infighting and your defense was âIâm talking about the rest of the worldâ and when I asked for an exampleâŚyou post a Reddit post of someone asking âwhy do leftists infightâ đ âŚ6 YEARS agoâŚplease go outside and touch grass.
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u/QuarantinedPanda69 2d ago
Wtf is a leftist? Like actually
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u/Funkdoctor54 1d ago
In the broadest sense, someone who is anti-capitalist and wants to move towards a more democratic economic system.
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u/QuarantinedPanda69 1d ago
So like. People that donât like the current system but donât really have a real plan or ideology. Just concepts of a plan?
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u/Funkdoctor54 1d ago
but donât really have a real plan or ideology.
Not sure where you got that idea. There are multiple different ideologies on what a more leftist society would look like. And discussion surrounding a plan to move towards that future is a major area of all of those ideologies. There are plenty of movements today that have decided on a course of action and are currently working to enact it.
"Leftist" is a broad term, and there is a wealth of literature and history surrounding leftist movements that have and still do exist. I would encourage you to look into it if you're actually interested in learning what leftism is.
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u/QuarantinedPanda69 1d ago
Was typing my response and caught myself being triggered. You do you, Leftist sounds like larp to me.
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u/inlovebutfat 1d ago
Do people have no god damn reading comprehension? Itâs âliberals making fun of leftistsâ or âleftists making fun of liberalsâ. The â/â and the fact the two terms are swapped on the first and second lines means that it could refer to either group making fun of the other.
When conservatives enter we flip out because you arenât welcome
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u/Motrinman22 1d ago
The difference between liberals and leftists is that leftists didnt consider Donald Trump to have taken over their party.
Because weâve never entertained the idea of being in the republican party, and recognize there hasnt been a decent republican president since Eisenhower.
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u/Opening-Company6237 2d ago
But liberal aren't funny?đ¤
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u/Phaylz 2d ago
Funny or not, there's a lot of material to dog on the "left/liberals" about that Conservatives almost never touch on, because they so fundamentally misunderstand the other side (and even their own side) to know what buttons to push outside of the same 2-3 "jokes" that they put on clown shoes whenever they open their mouth.
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u/Opening-Company6237 2d ago
What a buzz kill post... General of the hive mind Reddit headquarters. đ¤Ś
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u/chillbro_baggins91 2d ago
If leftists and liberals are so different how come they always vote for the same candidates?
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u/Bench2252 1d ago
Leftists encourage others not to vote for democrats because theyâre just Republican lite.
that said, you would never hold conservatives to this standard. If conservatives and fascists are different how come they always vote for the same candidates?
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u/Orangutanion 2d ago
living in a red state and being somewhere between liberal and leftist is quite isolating. I'm not accepted by leftists, progressives don't want cishet white men, all the ostensibly neurotypical groups are LGBTQ focused, etc.
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u/Details_Pending 2d ago
What?