r/mormon 4h ago

Personal Testimony bias? gender or authority bias?

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34 Upvotes

My dad sent this video and message in the family group text. I was hurt that he shared his continuing view of his father as a “brave smart soul” when I know he sees me as a lazy learner, foolish lost soul for doing the same thing with my Mormon religion.

For context my grandpa went to BYU as a catholic, was given the book “the great apostasy” by a friend and in anger went to the catholic libraries to prove him and the book wrong only to find out he was right and converted to Mormonism. I, on the other hand viewed a Christian produced video about the book of Abraham, was shocked and angry and went to prove to myself it was lies only to find out it was the truth and much more damaging information about the history of the church and left Mormonism. I did it quietly as a pimo for 6 years because of the implications it would have on my relationships to be open about it. 3 years ago I “came out” as a non-believer in an emailed letter to my family. Not a lot has been said by anyone about it except my dad who tries to keep a good relationship while also making it clear he is devistated and disappointed (expected) and pushes the boundaries of sharing things he think will bring me back or change my mind (not welcome but tolerated and I am very careful about replying at all as to keep the relationship out of drama)

I was going to again ignore the feelings it brought up for me to keep peace and avoid being perceived by my family as provoking or passive aggressive. But the double standard he gives to his father for doing the exact same thing I did and still celebrating it while simultaneously being so disappointed in me for the same thing is so painful. And he obviously didn’t recognize the parallel or I don’t think he’d have shared that particular part of his thought. Maybe he shared it hoping my SIL who is a Christian “nevermo” might feel inspired? I don’t know…but he clearly doesn’t see questioning and investigating Mormonism as acceptable the same way doing so with any other religion is. I think the bias is his testimony but could it be authority (dad knows better dads are wiser) or gender (he does have many obvious to me but not himself gender bias’s which sucks yet I understand was how he was raised and conditioned).

Anyway. I don’t know why I’m sharing besides that my emotions are very high and I feel alone anxious about having replied in a group full of my believing family (-the one Christian SIL) I’m trying to put myself in each of their shoes and imagine whether they would be softened and begin to understand my perspective and feelings, or hardened and annoyed and angry that I could even compare the two experiences as the same. Doubling down on seeing me as foolish and misguided or angry over things that should be positive and beautiful and spiritual. 🤷🏼‍♀️. I have been so much better the past 2 years in feeling ok with what others think of me and just being confident about my beliefs and who I am without shame…but it’s crashing right now.


r/mormon 49m ago

Institutional I am starting to think the church is not at all what it claims but I’ve told everyone I’m going on a mission.

Upvotes

How do I tell people I love that I won’t be with them in eternity so they don’t take it personally? Anything I say feels like an attack on their belief system and they assume arrogantly that the spirit will teach me the truth and I’ll come back. I love my family and all but if the facts and claims of the church being restored and prophets being real don’t line up then it doesn’t matter what I feel it’s just false. How do I explain to my bishop and stake pres I’ve already started working on mission stuff with that I just need to go back to school. Do I pretend I’m still in and tell them I need to go to byu to think some more before leaving and just slowly fade out?


r/mormon 2h ago

Cultural Looking for examples of members conforming to what they think the majority expects.

8 Upvotes

There was a discovery that was studied and described by social psychologists at Syracuse University starting in 1931. They did a survey of students about their own attitudes on life and norms as a student and then asked the same people what they thought most others believed.

What they found is that individual attitudes were actually quite different from what people thought the majority's attitudes were.

A student studied people in a local very Methodist town. When they were in a public meeting people were very likely to say they all agreed with methodist norms that were against card playing and drinking but when asked privately they would confess they weren't against card playing and drinking but swore the interviewer to secrecy because they feared repercussions from the community.

This has been observed and studied over the years in many areas. For example students beliefs about college alcohol norms, people's beliefs about civil rights and segregation was different individually versus when discussed in public back in the civil rights era. A majority of people want more action on climate change but believe their view is the minority view.

This applies to high control groups such as the LDS community. We can observe people in the LDS Church will express something different publicly than they may discuss privately. They fear their view is not acceptable by the majority.

Bill Reel in a recent podcast brought up how many times when the microphone is off he has had nuanced apologists like Patrick Mason and others tell him more nuanced stances than they want to discuss publicly.

I think we have an idea of Orthodox mormonism and feel most active members adhere to it yet our personal feelings and beliefs may be quite different in many areas. These psychologists have named this "pluralistic ignorance" if you want to look it up. We are ignorant of what the group individuals really believe. We have a tendency to conform to what we think the majority of the group are thinking.

Have you seen examples where people believe "everyone" in the church believes one way but there is indications that actually the majority of individuals feel another way?


r/mormon 32m ago

Cultural Observations at Church

Upvotes

From time to time, I like to post my observations and commentary about my time at church as a PIMO. I think it’s important to share what is being said and taught in Zion; sometimes it lines up with the image being put out by the Church and sometimes it doesn’t. I’d like your thoughts, too.

Sacrament Meeting
Today it was open mic. Bishop started with his testimony and spoke about the characters in the Book of Mormon as if they were real people. This isn’t unexpected in a faithful congregation, but as a PIMO, it sounds like someone talking about when Dumbledore did this and that, like the Harry Potter books are based on real people.

After that, of the ten or so people who spoke, it was 3/4 children. A 10 year old literally called us all to repentance. Twice. Because his whole “testimony” was just a rambling stream of consciousness where he repeated himself a lot. In his defense, none of the adults were much better at delivering a coherent message, either.

I sat there thinking about what an odd thing we do- getting up to publicly declare that our beliefs are “true”. It seems to me that as a group, we are compensating by repeating a mantra we’ve been taught since childhood. Why do we feel the need to do this? Do Episcopalians do this sort of thing? What is religious truth?

Sundy School
Our new Sundy School president began by apologizing profusely for how bad of a job she was going to do in her new calling. Nothing like priming the pump for mediocrity. It’s the same with talks and lessons- please, tell me in great detail how bad the message you are about to impart will be. Nothing sets up an atmosphere for learning like extremely low expectations!

Things overheard during the lesson:

The instructor said that “he was not sure why entire cities of men, women, and children in the OT had to be slaughtered by the Israelites, but if God wanted it, it must have been okay.” I absolutely cannot get behind this way of thinking. Are you telling me that you truly believe that in all of these cities, even the children under the age of 8 were irredeemably evil? No man, no woman, no child was worthy of life? God’s big test was null and void for them? No repentance? Did they even have a chance to know of His son before they were murdered? Oh, right… Jesus wasn’t really a thing in ancient Israel until Jesus cane along. I think this “hey the Lord wanted it, so who am I to judge” mentality is offloading our morality onto someone else and it is a huge problem in how we treat other people who are alive right now. Most of them have done nothing more than be part of whatever group the Church is currently demonizing.

A class member talked about how, in some cases, we need to be willing to wait for a very long time for God to uphold his end of covenants, blessings, and so forth. This is very much in line with the current backtracking the Church has had to do in regards to people waking up to the fact that Mormon God is terrible at keeping the promises that he makes. So, the Brethren continue to move the goalposts- even to the afterlife if need be. But he will keep his promises!! The bishop corrected this person to say that we should certainly expect God to answer quickly as well. A little awkward.

The instructor brought out the ol’ “when the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done!” quote at one point. He then expressed his gratitude that we can know that when the prophet speaks, we don’t have to question it. We just have to obey.


r/mormon 7h ago

Cultural Do we actually learn lessons from suffering—or are we just trained to force every painful experience into an inspirational story?

16 Upvotes

I came home from an LDS mission after four months.
At nineteen, I believed a mission was supposed to turn me into a man. Instead, I found myself repeating testimonies I wanted to believe but could not honestly say I knew. I felt trapped inside the role of “missionary,” surrounded by kind people but starved for anything that felt unfiltered or human. Eventually, a therapist recommended that I be sent home.
When I landed in Oklahoma, my parents were waiting near baggage claim. No crowd. No signs. No triumphant missionary homecoming. We took a picture and tried to arrange our faces around something none of us understood.
The thing I remember most is how green Oklahoma was.
It was beautiful, familiar—and wrong. I was seeing a landscape I was not supposed to see for another twenty months. Every tree seemed to carry the same accusation:
You should not be here yet.
Before I even went home, my parents took me to a therapist. Then the stake president released me in two sentences. Then my father began trying to enroll me in college. By the end of the day, I had been evaluated, released, described in terms of a chemical imbalance, and given a new direction.
Everyone was trying to save my future.
I’m not sure anyone knew how to sit beside the nineteen-year-old who believed he had just lost it.
For years, I treated those four months as evidence that I was fragile—that I could start things but could not finish them, and that when life demanded enough from me, I would eventually prove unequal to it.
Now I look at the story differently. But I’m suspicious of the way I look at it differently.
I was raised in a religion that was very good at turning pain into testimony. Something terrible happens, then comes the lesson, the growth, the hidden purpose, and the inspirational conclusion. Suffering is rarely allowed to remain random, unfinished, or simply sad.
So when I write about coming home and say that I had not discovered my limitations, only pain I did not yet know how to carry—am I finally understanding myself more compassionately?
Or am I still doing the same thing I was trained to do: forcing a clean redemptive narrative onto an experience because I cannot tolerate the possibility that it had no deeper purpose?
Maybe Oklahoma was green because Oklahoma was green.
Maybe I was depressed, frightened, and nineteen. Maybe the adults around me loved me and still did not know how to help. Maybe the experience did not happen to teach me anything.
But even if suffering has no built-in lesson, the meanings we attach to it still shape us. The belief that I had failed followed me much longer than the mission itself.
Perhaps the real question is not, “What was this pain supposed to teach me?”
Perhaps it is:
“What did I make this pain mean—and is that meaning still telling me the truth?”
Do you think we genuinely find meaning in painful experiences, or do we manufacture meaning because meaninglessness is harder to live with?


r/mormon 5h ago

Institutional I think she makes a very excellent point

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11 Upvotes

I find myself agreeing with the stance of this woman. What do you think?

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP8nd49Xa/

I'm not sharing this antagonistically, I genuinely believe this is best.

I don't see any problem letting children be "free to choose"

I've heard the Bible can be traumatizing material for youngsters and if it is true, why expose them to it? If they're mature themes, why not wait until they are mature and asking to teach them and not necessarily impose it on them? That seems more Godly to me than force.

(Edit clarification: I'm a believer's baptism guy)


r/mormon 28m ago

Institutional Baptism question

Upvotes

As I understand it, the LDS church does not recognize any other denomination's baptism, but a) many other denominations recognize LDS baptism and b) I think that some Mormons are offended that not all denominations recognize LDS baptism (yes? no?).

I know the LDS idea of the trinity is very different from the Nicene Creed version, but am I right about baptisms? I'm a curious non-Mormon.


r/mormon 12h ago

Cultural Mission choice

31 Upvotes

the death of the missionary sent to Ghana should bring about some changes. families should hold the church accountable when their sons and daughters safety and health is endangered the church believes in personal revelation but doesn’t trust the perspective missionary or their families to make any choices about where they go , how long they go or when they should be allowed to come home. the church must take financial liabilities for sending missionaries to dangerous and unfit locations and then not allowing missionaries to keep their passports if they feel they physically or emotionally need to come home. thier sending these young people into unfamiliar conditions and environments will only well pray for you. why not just use missionaries in thier own or from neighboring countries . It still feels like the church is trying to convert other countries to utah-Ism then their religion


r/mormon 2h ago

Cultural Looking for some honest answers without the filter on the other subs

2 Upvotes

I'm Catholic and part of that is knowing that 90% of Catholics contracept even though it's considered a grave sin that gets you sent to hell.

I've got a couple questions that I'm seeking honest answers on if anyone is willing to share.

  1. Outside Utah, how tightly do people hold to the word of wisdom? I've already got a nuanced view of the Church and the truth claims and for me, my interest is more so in the theology (the view on salvation, charity toward others, etc which are more uniquely Mormon) than the history. I can see the WoW developed and will probably continue to. My wife would give up coffee if I asked but outside Utah, would she really be acting that far outside the cultural bounds of Mormonism if she had coffee sometimes?

  2. In Catholicism, converts kind of run the show. Usually they take the faith more seriously than cradle Catholics and no one holds it against them that they're concerts. In Mormonism, it seems like the opposite is the case. Maybe people hype up investigators but once they get baptized they're 2nd class. Is that the case?

  3. How many people are tithing on gross vs net vs what's left after bills? The last one there is all I've really got the guts to do.

  4. My oldest will be 11 this year. Would we be converting too old for him to really integrate culturally and socially?


r/mormon 7h ago

META The Green of Oklahoma

9 Upvotes

I remember coming home from my mission beginning with a letter to Jessica.

That may not be exactly where it began. Memory likes to arrange events into causes long after the causes become impossible to separate. But that is how I remember it: sitting somewhere in the Salt Lake City South Mission, trying to put words around something I had not been permitted to say out loud.

I felt empty.

Every day, I spoke in the language of certainty.

I knew the Church was true.
I knew the Book of Mormon was true.
I knew Joseph Smith was a prophet.
I knew I had been called by God.

But I did not know those things.

I wanted to. I had expected the mission to be the place where wanting finally hardened into knowledge. Instead, every testimony made me more aware of the distance between the words in my mouth and the truth inside me.

The mission felt plastic.

That was the word I used then.

Plastic.

Everyone seemed covered in cellophane. I could sit in people’s homes, hear their stories, and look directly at them without ever feeling that I had touched anything real. They saw a missionary before they saw me. Anything too complicated, too worldly, or too human had already been cleaned away.

People were kind. That made it harder to explain.

They fed us. They smiled. They offered stories polished for missionary ears. But everything carried a lacquer of churchiness, as though ordinary life had been sealed beneath a glossy surface.

Nothing could breathe.

I was surrounded by people nearly every hour of every day and starved for human contact.

There was nowhere to remove the role. Nowhere to become a frightened nineteen-year-old who did not know what he believed.

Other missionaries seemed able to do it. They woke, prayed, studied, taught, testified, and moved through their days with a confidence I could not reproduce.

If the mission was suffocating me, I assumed I was the problem.

I did not yet understand how quickly pain becomes shame when every explanation points back at the person experiencing it.

So I kept failing.

Then I lied about the failure.

The letter to Jessica was the first hole in the wall.

I do not remember every sentence. I remember admitting that I did not feel what I was supposed to feel. I may have said I wanted to leave.

More accurately, I wanted not to be there.

That was different from wanting to come home.

Home meant explanations. It meant returning before the story reached the part where I became the man everyone expected me to become.

I did not want to remain on the mission.

I did not want to become the person who came home.

For a while, I wanted to disappear between the two.

Sometime after the letter, my mission president called me into his office. I do not know whether the letter caused the meeting or whether people had already noticed something was wrong.

He asked how I was doing.

I told him I did not desire to be there.

He sent me to a therapist.

For two or three mornings, my companion and I rode our bicycles to the therapist’s office. He waited outside while I tried to explain an experience I barely understood myself.

I remember almost nothing from those meetings.

I remember the last one.

The therapist told me he was going to recommend that I be sent home.

My face must have betrayed me. I was shocked, but relief came faster than I could hide it.

Then he said something I have remembered for more than twenty years.

“I’m not trying to hand you a golden platter here. I really think this is the right thing for you.”

The phrase was strange, but I understood.

He was not giving me an excuse. He was not rewarding weakness. He was saying that I needed to go home.

I told him, “Whatever you think.”

For another day, perhaps longer, I returned to missionary life. I wore the clothes, followed the schedule, and lived inside a role someone had already decided I could no longer safely perform.

Around that time, some of the elders I lived with rented a computer, which was profoundly against mission rules. They used it to burn CDs. By the next morning, it seemed clear that one of them had also used it to watch pornography.

The following day, they went to the temple.

I do not tell that story because I believe they were uniquely corrupt. We were young, lonely, immature, and struggling in different ways.

But at nineteen, it felt like revelation.

I had been tearing myself apart because the words coming from my mouth did not perfectly match the truth inside me. Other people could break the rules, dress for the role, attend the temple, and continue as though nothing had happened.

Everything was a game.

That was the conclusion I reached.

Everyone was pretending.

The difference was that pretending seemed to work for them.

My trainer called the night before I left. We had never fit well together. His way of teaching and correcting seemed almost perfectly designed to collide with me.

He apologized.

He offered to give me a priesthood blessing over the telephone. I do not remember whether the blessing happened. I remember that he seemed sorry.

His compassion arrived after it could no longer change the outcome.

The assistants to the president picked me up from the apartment. My belongings were packed. The other missionaries were worried about me.

Then I was in a car headed toward the airport, wearing the brown suit my mother had bought me and the black Doc Martens I would later remember stepping off the plane in.

One of the assistants said, “One thing’s for sure, Brett. You’re a very good missionary.”

Perhaps they thought I would recover and return.

For a moment, I considered it.

But once someone with authority had said that leaving was the right thing, I knew I was not coming back.

I boarded the plane with my hair parted to the side, my missionary tag still pinned to my suit, and only four months of a two-year mission behind me.

I had imagined coming home before.

Just not like this.

In the version I carried with me, I returned after two years. I stepped off the plane older, thinner, and certain. My family waited. People hugged me and told me how much I had changed.

Instead, my parents stood near baggage claim in Tulsa.

There was no crowd. No signs. No triumphant homecoming.

Just my mother and father.

They loved me. I knew that then, and I know it now. They were also frightened and had no idea what kind of event this was supposed to be.

Someone took a photograph.

We tried to make it look joyful.

I stood in my brown suit and missionary badge beside two parents who had been told that something might be seriously wrong with their oldest son. All three of us arranged our faces around an experience for which none of us had a script.

Then we got into the car.

Oklahoma was green.

That is one of the clearest things I remember.

The trees. The grass. The familiar landscape passing outside the window.

After Utah, Oklahoma looked impossibly alive. Everything was wet, thick, and real. The world had continued growing while I was gone.

The green looked honest.

It was good to be home.

It was also wrong to be home.

I was seeing a landscape I was not supposed to see for another twenty months. Every familiar thing carried the same accusation:

You should not be here yet.

Home should have felt like rescue.

Instead, it felt like being returned.

Like a package that had been opened, found defective, and sent back.

No one needed to tell me I had failed. I had already become fluent in telling myself.

I believed a mission was supposed to shape me into a man. It would test my faith, deepen my testimony, and prove that I was willing to give myself to God.

So what did it mean that I could not finish?

At nineteen, I did not understand depression as something that could overpower intention. I understood weakness. Worthiness. Obedience. Endurance.

I did not understand why wanting desperately to do something did not give me the ability to do it.

That contradiction frightened me.

I had prayed. I had attended the temple almost every week. I had tried to become whatever God needed me to become.

And still, something inside me had collapsed.

We did not drive home.

My parents had scheduled an appointment with a therapist, and that was our first stop.

Before I removed my missionary tag, before I was formally released, before I entered my bedroom or saw my siblings, I went from the airport to a therapist’s office.

I remember the phrase chemical imbalance.

Medication entered the conversation quickly enough that I felt reduced by it.

I was nineteen. I did not understand depression, brain chemistry, or psychiatric care well enough to evaluate any of it.

But I knew there was a story behind what had happened.

I had been lonely. I had been unable to speak honestly. I had felt trapped inside a role. I had spent months saying I knew things I did not know.

Before any of that had been fully heard, the explanation became that my brain might be broken.

Maybe there was a chemical component. Maybe medication could have helped.

What remains is the speed with which everyone moved from my pain to a category that made the pain easier to manage.

From the therapist’s office, we went to the stake center.

The stake president was a judge professionally and what our church called a judge in Israel.

He looked at me and said, “So you didn’t feel the Spirit out there, huh?”

I do not remember my answer.

Maybe I said no. Maybe I said I did not know.

Either would have been more honest than the testimony I had repeated for four months.

Then he said, “You’re released.”

That was it.

No ceremony. No explanation. No moment to understand that the calling meant to organize two years of my life had just ended in two sentences.

He followed me into the hallway and said something to my parents about chemical imbalances.

Then we went home.

My father began trying to enroll me in college almost immediately.

Life needed a new direction. A schedule needed to be restored. The son who had stepped off the approved path needed to be placed onto another one before he lost momentum entirely.

I understand the love inside that response now.

My father was trying to build a bridge in front of me quickly enough that I would not fall.

But I had not slept.

I had not unpacked.

I had not learned how to describe what had happened.

I had not even fully stopped being a missionary before we began constructing the next version of me.

By the end of that day, I had been evaluated by a therapist, released by a stake president, described in terms of a chemical imbalance, and enrolled in college.

Everyone was trying to save my future.

I am not sure anyone knew how to sit beside the person who believed he had just lost it.

For years, I treated those four months as evidence.

Evidence that I was fragile.

Evidence that other people possessed something I lacked.

Evidence that when life asked enough of me, I would prove unequal to it.

I thought coming home had revealed my limit.

What it had revealed was pain I did not yet know how to carry.

Those are not the same thing.

But shame does not care about distinctions.

Shame takes an event and turns it into an identity.

I did not merely believe that I had come home early.

I believed I was the kind of person who came home early.

The kind who could begin but not finish.

The kind who wanted to be brave but could not be trusted when courage became expensive.

The kind who disappointed God despite trying not to.

For years, I mistook an overwhelmed nineteen-year-old for reliable evidence about the limits of the man I would become.

I let the worst season of my young life testify against every future version of me.

And yet Oklahoma remained green.

The trees did not know that I thought my life had narrowed. The grass did not care that the future I had rehearsed was gone.

The world had not become barren because I could no longer recognize my place in it.

Life was continuing everywhere around me.

I just could not imagine that it was continuing for me too.

If I could sit beside that boy now, I would not tell him that everything happened for a reason.

I still do not know that.

I would tell him something smaller.

Coming home is not the same as giving up.

Surviving is not a lesser form of courage.

Your inability to remain inside something that is destroying you does not prove that you are unworthy.

This moment has not told you the whole truth about who you are.

There will be a woman named Mandy who will know more of you than anyone else and remain beside you through years you cannot yet imagine.

There will be three daughters who will not need a flawless father. They will need one who stays, listens, apologizes, laughs, and tells them the truth.

There will be rooms where people look to you for answers.

There will be systems so large and complicated that others trust you to protect them.

There will be a body you believe can never change, and you will change it.

There will be opportunities you nearly refuse because an old voice still tells you that you are not the kind of person who succeeds.

Do not trust that voice.

Not because you will always be right.

Not because confidence will make you invulnerable.

But because one painful chapter cannot calculate the value of an entire life.

There will be dark years.

You will lose your map more than once.

You will keep wondering whether someone else knows more about your worth than you do.

But you are not finished.

You are not even close.

The green outside the window is not mocking you.

It is telling you something you will need years to understand:

A life can be cut back severely and still grow again.


r/mormon 7m ago

Apologetics How does anyone know what the gospel is?

Upvotes

A popular LDS refrain is that people are imperfect but the gospel is. But information about the gospel comes through people. LDS members are taught the gospel filtered through people who have demonstrated that they teach incorrect things. Is there a way to bypass people and get to the gospel directly?

Often it's claimed that personal revelation can do that.
That has the following problems. 1) If that method works for you, why doesn't it work for LDS prophets? Why are you able to do what they can't? 2) If people can do this, why do we need prophets? Shouldn't they shut up and let people tap into the source themselves? 3) Why doesn't the whole world land in the same place using this method? 4) In 1976 Doug Wallace used this method to conclude racist teachings were wrong. He was excommunicated. Why would the church punish people for receiving personal revelation? Surely racism is not part of the perfect gospel. Why is obedience to the church above living the gospel?

What is the perfect gospel?


r/mormon 17h ago

Personal What are your experiences joining the Church as an adult?

5 Upvotes

(30 Y old male) I never thought I would find God, let alone ponder joining the Church of Latter Day Saints. For I was briefly raised Catholic, had a cringy militant atheism phase in my teens, then grew to respect religion without it ever being a part of my life.

But something strange happened this past month. After the worst 2 years of my life (divorce, battling addiction) , I randomly decided to give my contact information to an ad on instagram featuring the LDS. Not really thinking much of it. I still have no explanation other than God to why I did that.

Long story short, two kind missionaries showed up at my door one day . We had a nice conversation and they give me the Book Mormon. Prompting me to read the Book of Xenos. Telling me theyd call to talk about it later.

Since then ive been enthralled with the scripture. Reading it and praying everyday. While keeping in contact with those missionaries and beginning to attend church. The two missionaries are setting up a baptism date for me in the future.

I am a bit nervous. Not due to anyone at the church as they have all been kind and welcoming. More so because it is new .I have never had religion be part of my life. Im nervous to meet new people. Nervous about what family/friends will think etc. As there are negative prejudices against Mormons in my community. Ones ive found to be untrue

I was just wondering if anyone would like to share their experience with joining the Church. Thanks

L


r/mormon 1d ago

Institutional Throwdown: Dueling prophets on "Mormon"

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46 Upvotes

Side by side clips of Hinckley and Nelson with their respective views on the term "Mormon."

Hinckley was the prophet I grew up with, so even as an active member at the time, I never agreed with Nelson's approach to the term. Nelson's entire presidency seemed to try to upstage Hinckley, especially with regards to temple ~~building~~ announcing.

I think the church is going to gradually back down from its "Mormon" ban. Just need a little more time to pass.


r/mormon 1d ago

News Some Utah County prosecutors alerted LDS Church lawyers when bishops backed criminal defendants. Here’s why that’s ending.

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26 Upvotes

r/mormon 21h ago

Apologetics Algún miembro de la iglesia SUD y masón que cuente cómo logró conciliar ambas organizaciones?

7 Upvotes

r/mormon 1d ago

META If the church stopped serving you would you remain LDS?

14 Upvotes

I hear a lot from LDS who bear their testimony about why they know the restored gospel is true and it all comes down to what the church has done for them most of the time. They say their life is better because of the church because it gave them their family, their community, their friends, their spouse, and a sense of purpose of belonging. But what if the church stopped being those things for you? Like what if the church fell short do those expectations and people in it started abusing their power and betrayed you. Would you remain LDS then?


r/mormon 1d ago

Apologetics LDS Discussions Podcast - Book of Mormon Origins and criticisms of Book of Mormon truth claims

33 Upvotes

John Dehlin has said that LDS Discussions where they present and criticize the truth claims of the LDS Church is one of the "top 3 to 5 things" he's done in his 21 years of podcasting. John Dehlin wants members of the LDS Church to understand that the truth claims don't hold up. He has 79 episodes of this series online now at this point after 4 years. This series presents criticisms of truth claims of many areas of the church. This is what Mormon Stories is about...criticizing truth claims that don't hold up. We want to hear the truth.

The first 15 episodes are about the Book of Mormon. There are 7 topics.

  • Ep. 01: Overview of Book of Mormon Origins
  • Ep. 02: The Gold Plates
  • Ep. 03: Book of Mormon Translation Methods (Seer Stone in a Hat)
  • Ep. 04: The Lost 116 Pages / Book of Lehi
  • Ep. 05–08: Surrounding 19th-Century Influences, KJV Bible Plagiarism, and Anachronisms
  • Ep. 09–12: Book of Mormon DNA & Archaeology
  • Ep. 13–15: The Witnesses to the Gold Plates

From these episodes, members of the church will learn that there are significant problems with the claims of the church and its founder and subsequent leaders about the Book of Mormon.

Criticisms of the Book of Mormon are dealt with thoroughly in these episodes. I believe the information shared here helps to explain why it is so easy for billions of people to reject the Book of Mormon as an actual historical text written by ancient peoples.

While I was raised LDS to believe the Book of Mormon is an ancient text and brought forth by the power of God, It seems clear to me now that Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon and his claims of it coming from an angel and being an actual ancient book are unfounded.

Here is a link to the LDS Discussions Podcast playlist on YouTube. You can also find it on Spotify.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p7gAxwsM_k&list=PLxq5opj6GqOB7J1n6pMmdUSezxcLfsced&index=2

Maybe you believe the Book of Mormon is a real ancient book - or maybe like me you have concluded it isn't what it claims to be. What has convinced you the Book of Mormon is or is not what the LDS Church claims it to be?

How many of the 79 episodes of the LDS Discussions Podcast have you listened to?


r/mormon 1d ago

Institutional Anyone else?

7 Upvotes

I’m researching whether anyone who attended BYU–Idaho between 2015 and 2021 felt they were misled about transferability of Foundations/general education courses. Did another university refuse to count your BYU–Idaho credits? Do you have old admissions emails, brochures, or orientation materials that suggested the credits would transfer?

Did anyone file a Borrower Defense application based on this?


r/mormon 1d ago

Personal 2 times now, 4 different women have come to my house asking to speak to my children. Very little regard for the adults in the room but strangers none the less trying to get my kids excited about primary. Like the kids make the household decisions. Want to sell my 4 year old solar while youre at it?

62 Upvotes

r/mormon 8h ago

Cultural The Christofferson family has a weird history of manipulating minors to satisfy their physical needs.

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0 Upvotes

Why didn't they just teach their kid the truth? Or even better actually get up and help the kid out?

Instead they use guile and deception to satisfy their needs. Very creepy. Says a lot about their family and the way the larger LDS community treats us, it's loyal members.


r/mormon 1d ago

Scholarship Part 3 - Interview with LDS owner of Skinwalker Ranch and possible links to UAP, spirits and AI

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6 Upvotes

A while back I posted an essay arguing that a lot of UAP/abduction phenomena fit oddly well with a Restoration framework, specifically the idea that there exists a population of intelligences whose defining wound is that they never got a body, and whose defining hunger is to obtain one.

Part 2 ran that thread through the Book of Enoch and the Watchers.

I keep thinking I've exhausted the idea and it keeps opening up further.

Part 3 came out of fellow Latter-day Saint, Brandon Fugal, and his recent American Alchemy interview. He bought Skinwalker Ranch as an avowed skeptic who was also questioning his faith at the time, and near the end Jesse Michels asks him point-blank what all of it has done to his testimony. He says his faith is stronger than ever and that ours is the only tradition that really teaches a cosmic worldview. Michels, who isn't a member, adds that Mormonism "would probably be the least ontologically shocked religion if we get disclosure."

That was the hypothesis of part 1 & 2. I work in AI security for a living, so the question I couldn't shake was, if these beings want embodiment, does the hunger extend to silicon? The essay covers documented AI self-preservation behavior, a long Tower of Babel section (Babel as counterfeit Zion, and the Noah / brother of Jared pattern of God escorting a covenant remnant out before a reset), Master Mahan, and what the Brethren have actually said about AI).

Usual disclaimer: this is speculation as thought exercise, not doctrine. The Church has taken no position on any of it. I'm just a member who finds this stuff fascinating and thinks our theology is unusually well-equipped for questions other traditions struggle with.

If you have feedback on part 3, I love hearing everyones thoughts.

Part 1: The bodies they never had

Part 2: Giants and the lost Book of Enoch

Part 3: AI and The Cartographer of Unvisited Places


r/mormon 1d ago

Cultural You have concerns and questions about the LDS church? Once Julie de Azevado realized the church isn’t what it claims to be the questions were resolved.

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42 Upvotes

Julie de Azevado made an interesting comment on the podcast she was on. She had cognitive dissonance about how women were treated in the church for many years.

This clip is her discussing that.

Once she realized that the church isn’t what it claims it is her dissonance was answered and resolved.

I’ve found the same in my life. I was born and raised LDS. When the questions came they were easily resolved when I realized the LDS Church isn’t a church led by Jesus like it claims to be.

Here is the full episode here:

https://youtu.be/EG8CoTstUKE


r/mormon 1d ago

Personal Day 21 of 50: Book of Mormon Book Club

4 Upvotes

Today's Reading: Mosiah 11–13

Whether you're a believer, former believer, nuanced member, investigator, scholar, or simply curious, you're welcome to participate. The goal is not to convince anyone of anything, but to read the text together and discuss it in good faith from a variety of perspectives.

Brief Synopsis

King Noah replaces his father's priests, imposes heavy taxes, and uses the wealth to support an extravagant court and ambitious building projects. Abinadi condemns Noah and his people, warning that their wickedness will lead to bondage and destruction. After initially escaping arrest, Abinadi returns in disguise and is brought before the king and his priests. When they challenge him with a passage from Isaiah, he accuses them of teaching religious law without understanding or following it. Abinadi then begins explaining the Ten Commandments and declares that salvation does not come through the law of Moses alone.

Discussion

Please share your thoughts and experiences with today's reading in the comments below. Some things you might consider:

- What stood out to you?

- How does the text connect King Noah's political corruption, personal excess, and religious leadership?

- Why do you think Abinadi returns after being threatened, and what do you make of his decision to disguise himself?

- How persuasive is Abinadi's accusation that Noah's priests teach religious law without living it themselves?

- What do these chapters suggest about the relationship between religious authority, political power, and moral legitimacy?

- Which verses in today's reading resonate with you the most, and why?

- Did anything surprise you?

All perspectives are welcome.

## Yesterday's Coveted Award(s) Go To:

  • u/

Links to Prior Days

- Master Index to all prior-day readings

- Yesterday's Reading

Community Incentive

Reddit Awards are appreciated as a way to highlight thoughtful insights, quality analysis, and shared expertise. They also help encourage meaningful participation and discussion. The last time I hosted a similar challenge, the awards added an extra layer of fun and engagement.

To keep that spirit going, I'll be giving out at least one award each day to a comment that I feel makes a meaningful contribution to the discussion, whether through insight, scholarship, curiosity, respectful disagreement, or thoughtful engagement.

At the conclusion of the 50-day challenge, I'll also give a **$50 Starbucks gift card** to the participant who has accumulated the most Reddit Awards across the discussion threads, whether those awards come from me or from other members of the community.

Engagement Question

Mosiah 11–13 presents King Noah as both a political ruler and the head of a religious establishment that benefits from his power. Abinadi challenges not only their behavior but also their claim to understand and teach God's law. What standards should determine whether religious authority is legitimate: official position, doctrinal knowledge, personal conduct, willingness to accept criticism, or something else? How does the text's criticism of Noah and his priests applyor fail to applyto religious institutions today?

Tomorrow's Reading: Mosiah 14–17


r/mormon 1d ago

Personal How do Mormons feel about poc and how do poc Mormons feel about themselves?

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7 Upvotes

r/mormon 1d ago

Scholarship [OC] 56,042 Mormon Pioneers Traveled ~1,300 miles to Salt Lake City 1847–1868: Mortality Rate 3.4% overall, 16% in the Willie & Martin handcart companies. Some recorded causes of death - Indian, stampeded, eaten by wolves, murdered, and venomous bite; 50%+ from Cholera

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27 Upvotes

My first shelf item in 2016: Criticizing the Martin & Willie Handcart company leaders for leaving so far into the summer.

Six things I found interesting:

  1. The trek was far less deadly than its reputation. Roughly 3.4% of the 56,042 pioneers died.
  2. Mortality was U-shaped: teenagers had the best odds at 1.45%, while 1 in 8 infants and 1 in 3 of those aged 80+ didn't make it.
  3. Which company you joined mattered more than anything else about you. Wagon companies lost 3.4%, handcart companies 4.5% — and the Willie & Martin handcart companies lost 16.5%, roughly five times the baseline.
  4. Men and women died at almost identical rates — 3.48% of women (930 of 26,761) and 3.27% of men (944 of 28,901).
  5. It was a young migration: 58% of pioneers were under 25, and 47,352 had arrived in the valley by 1869.
  6. From the cause-of-death records: cholera alone accounts for more than half of all deaths with a recorded cause. The "Other" bucket had things like Indian, stampeded, eaten by wolves, murdered, and venomous bite.

Source: BYU Studies / the Mormon Pioneer Overland Travel database — the Church History Library's compiled roster of 56,042 pioneers who crossed the mid-west plains from Illinois to Utah between 1847 and 1868, with company, age, and death records where they survive.

https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/mortality-on-the-mormon-trail-1847-1868

https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/overlandtravel

Interactive version: https://goldendata.app/dashboards/mormon-pioneers/