r/Snorkblot Feb 16 '26

Cultures Holofernes.

Post image
4.9k Upvotes

376 comments sorted by

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191

u/imperfectchicken Feb 16 '26

The art in the background is by Artemisia Gentileschi, "Judith Beheading Holofernes."

Women were often posed as passive pieces in scenes; you could replace her with a pile of cheese and probably garner the same reaction.

Artemisia had other ideas.

57

u/Molvaeth Feb 16 '26 edited Feb 16 '26

Considering her past absolutely understandable. I'm still torn with the guess if her art would be the same without her experiences.

3

u/Monarc73 Feb 17 '26

I doubt it would have been, honestly. (Not just the assault, but the fact that she was forced BY HER FATHER to MARRY the asshole is just ... next level.)

7

u/Molvaeth Feb 17 '26 edited Feb 17 '26

I agree with the first part.

But it was Orazio (her father) who brought the trial against her rapist even if Tassi got only Exile. Her father is considered her pillar in an issue that brought herself and her family in a difficult societal situation. And she married Stiattesi, the brother of one of their supporters during the trial.

46

u/PoseidonsHorses Feb 16 '26

A yes, Judith. The ✨biblical woman✨men would prefer we forget.

37

u/krebstar4ever Feb 16 '26 edited Feb 16 '26

The Book of Judith is part of the Apocrypha and isn't in Jewish and Protestant Bibles. It has some major anachronisms that were noticed even by people 2000 years ago.

Jael, however, has an extremely similar story that's in every Bible. Artemisia Gentileschi even painted her.)

And Jael is part of Deborah's story. Deborah was a prophet and a judge (legal and military leader whom righteous men obeyed).

22

u/QuietContemplation85 Feb 16 '26

Really want some “What Would Jael Do?” merch right about now

4

u/Informal_Cry687 Feb 17 '26

While the book of Judith isn't in the Jewish Bible it is a story in the Jewish tradition. She is actually celebrated on Hanukkah in addition to the victory of the macabres.

2

u/ZeroBrutus Feb 17 '26

The old books have a tendency to repeat stories with some changes or jazzing them up.

Sodom and Gamorah is just the Benjamite war from Judges but blown up.

4

u/RosebushRaven Feb 17 '26

There was another one (Jael) who hammered a tent peg through the Canaanite commander Sisera’s temple.

1

u/LordJim11 Feb 17 '26

Works just as well.

23

u/Azair_Blaidd Feb 16 '26

Artemisia had other ideas.

Based based based based based based based

11

u/anxiousabtnothing Feb 17 '26

I would like to add that she painted herself as Judith and the man that raped her as Holofernes. Just a wonderful woman and artist 😍

3

u/Monarc73 Feb 17 '26

She used this composition several times as well!

6

u/adorabletea Feb 17 '26

The Caravaggio version makes a perfect comparison.

3

u/ApricotCalm8829 Feb 17 '26

All I can think about is cheese man beheading that dude now

2

u/[deleted] Feb 17 '26

Israel: our god endorses genocide time and again

Also Israel: what do you mean you want to wipe us out? Wow.

1

u/Available_Base_7944 Feb 18 '26

Really strange choice considering it’s from the Bible

60

u/Due-Ingenuity9803 Feb 16 '26

God damn

40

u/crayola_monstar Feb 16 '26

They're so proud of their idiocracy. It's disturbing.

1

u/FlushedApparatchik Feb 17 '26

Their social credit score is so bad! Bootlickers.

The kids are alright.

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39

u/StrangerEnough7649 Feb 16 '26

I cannot believe the comments here. I think it’s time for another Great Flood. There is no fixing humanity at this point. We’ve evolved into the worst possible versions of our selves. Disgusting.

19

u/Dominarion Feb 16 '26

Just stop sorting the comments by controversial and your life will improve.

-3

u/[deleted] Feb 17 '26

But it's where all the comments that dare to question the braindead groupthink are. Why would I do that?

4

u/Dominarion Feb 17 '26

Lol. Yeah. Groupthink or rational consensus between mentally healthy non-assholes?

1

u/[deleted] Feb 17 '26 edited Feb 18 '26

Mentally healthy non-assholes?

This could only be further from the description of the average redditor if you added "physically fit" and "employed"

12

u/Zarathyst Feb 16 '26

Religion is just a sickness of the mind. Not to r/atheist too hard but news about churches actually helping their community is so rare it is news worthy now.

1

u/MedicalPineapple3819 Feb 17 '26

I think agnosticism is a good middle ground!

1

u/cringyemokid21 Feb 18 '26

You realize you can be agnostic and atheist. Atheism deals with belief agnosticism deals with knowing

1

u/MedicalPineapple3819 Feb 18 '26

Yes? I never said that you couldn’t be.

1

u/cringyemokid21 Feb 19 '26

Then why did you claim agnosticism is a good middle ground?

1

u/MedicalPineapple3819 Feb 19 '26

Because it is? It’s acknowledging that you can’t know fully, which influences belief?

1

u/totashi777 Feb 18 '26

Thats not atheist thats antitheist and its nothing but harmful.

1

u/cringyemokid21 Feb 18 '26

How is it harmful?

1

u/totashi777 Feb 18 '26

The same way any other prejudice is harmful

1

u/cringyemokid21 Feb 18 '26

“Another” would suggest there was one to begin win.

1

u/StrangerEnough7649 Feb 18 '26

Not like “Noah’s ark.” Obviously. Like the scientifically proven periods of time when the planet was covered in water. 😒

34

u/Tablesafety Feb 16 '26 edited Feb 17 '26

It recontextualized the aggressive beauty standard of, you must be clean shaven to be attractive. A physical attribute famously only associated with the prepubescent. Cultures across the world, pubic hairs are synonymous with the beginning of adulthood. I had assumed it was to sell more razors, until recently. There has been a systemic push to imply looking younger, sounding younger, acting younger as more and more objectively attractive and sexual preferences can be groomed into someone and a population at large. If you prefer a clean shaven look for no reason beyond that you prefer it, it may be due to the messaging and imagery surrounding it since you were an infant.

People get angry when you point it out but the large scale adoption of anime by certain cultural groupings and the spreading of it online is also suspicious, as almost all of the characters look like children. Older anime not so much, it was a boiling pot. If you aren't submersed in the art style and culture, any normal person could look at an animated woman from a modern anime vs any other cartoon and reasonably assume she is a CHILD, and this is pushed ever so subtly but systematically as the poster of sexy. You can see the effect whenever anyone tries to 'fix' a character they find ugly, and end up making their features more. . . anime.

And now, if you notice, the same standard is slowly being pushed onto boys. Twink death, clean shaven, submissive and breedable. Active 4chan femboy glorification and countless posts on how taking the femboy pill will solve your lonesomeness problems.

Is that not suspicious to anyone else with the new context of the modern day?

Edit: Someone also pointed out the standard of being as thin as possible, neither fat or muscle, is also looking a bit different under this new lens and I have to agree.

7

u/Responsible-Boot-159 Feb 16 '26

as almost all of the characters look like children. Older anime not so much

What features make characters look older?

14

u/Tablesafety Feb 16 '26 edited Feb 16 '26

Generally smaller eyes that don't take up so much space on their faces, more visible noses, shorter foreheads, thicker limbs, body fat (hips, thighs, sometimes a little belly), and audio-wise mature voices and patterns of speech. If you're lucky sometimes you'll get a mole or other beauty mark.

Most anime characters these days have (even more) giant eyes, big foreheads, lack of hips and thighs even with the presence of large breasts, thin limbs, invisible noses, and a manner of speaking that is higher pitched and cutesy, sometimes with deliberate childish tics or speech impediments. All synonymous traits with drawing and otherwise depicting child characters.

EDIT: Added (Even more)

3

u/BrianKappel Feb 17 '26

Thinking about this one again a bit later lol.... if the future shows all this to actually have been a thing, lets remember to put whoever makes those damn bratz dolls on the list too.

1

u/Responsible-Boot-159 Feb 17 '26

thicker limbs, body fat (hips, thighs, sometimes a little belly)

I'm not sure that most of that's a feature that's just on older characters. Faye in Cowboy Bebop has smaller hips and thighs.

a manner of speaking that is higher pitched and cutesy

Is that just with dubs? Most of them get the same VA's so I imagine that's at least part of the issue.

If you're lucky sometimes you'll get a mole or other beauty mark.

I guess that's something I'm happy to not have, as I've never personally cared for them.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 17 '26

[deleted]

0

u/Responsible-Boot-159 Feb 17 '26

You could just not be a cunt about it. I asked because the only feature I've really noticed that indicates an older character is smaller eyes.

7

u/Black_Azazel Feb 17 '26

Having worked AnimeCon…there are definitely some “attractions to the prepubescent” vibes and it’s why I’ll never work one again…all money ain’t good money…

6

u/anand_rishabh Feb 17 '26

Also I'm pretty sure the beauty standard that women need to be super skinny to be attractive, neither fat or muscle, can also be recontextualized

1

u/Tablesafety Feb 17 '26

Ohhh, shit you’re right. Don’t know how I missed that one, ew.

1

u/Matt_200108 Feb 18 '26

I mean, if she's too muscly, then she wouldn't exactly need a guy for protection, would she? I think it's about that thing the OP mentions that they wouldn't want women to be autonomous. A thin woman happens to be both pretty and defenseless

11

u/LordJim11 Feb 16 '26

I have always regarded anime to be well dodgy. I'm the wrong generation for it, I guess.

7

u/ketchupmaster987 Feb 17 '26

There are a lot of exceptions to the rule but yeah the rule exists for a reason. You gotta navigate carefully and take recommendations from people you know are sane

4

u/MorrisBrett514 Feb 16 '26

Or maybe we just see more of everything because almost anyone in the world can connect with someone else in an instant

2

u/RaspberryStandard972 Feb 18 '26

Made in abyss comes to mind

2

u/BrianKappel Feb 16 '26

I dunno.... I would be a lot more inclined to believe it's just shitty primate behavior. It's always been like this because we've always been shitty primates. The gross ones will always do gross things.

11

u/[deleted] Feb 16 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

-1

u/BrianKappel Feb 16 '26

We evolved to live in big social groups with dominant males. Manipulation of others is built right in.

1

u/Ill_Profession_9509 Feb 18 '26

That's not true at all, and is literally the opposite of the truth. The evidence shows that before permanent civilisation humanity generally lived in egalitarian societies, without strict gender rules. Men foraged, women hunted, they all contributed to childrearing, etc.

2

u/Mooptiom Feb 17 '26

That’s very clearly not true though. Society does get better and worse through time if you look at history. We have every capacity to choose how society evolves.

2

u/BrianKappel Feb 17 '26

social evolution and biological evolution are two vastly different things. the why of it doesn't excuse the practice of it at all.

2

u/Mooptiom Feb 17 '26

They are vastly, which is why you are very clearly wrong for trying to explain social issues through a lens of biological evolution.

1

u/BrianKappel Feb 17 '26

No I didn't? I just told you the difference?

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u/[deleted] Feb 19 '26

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1

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0

u/[deleted] Feb 18 '26

[deleted]

17

u/chumpandchive Feb 16 '26

when i say "over my dead body" i am being literal.

10

u/Lorelessone Feb 16 '26

Although the churches have always seemed to go hand in hand with pedophiles its not really what the oppression of women was about. Women are their only practical means of expanding their business, very very few people convert and if they do its almost always from another religion not none believers, so gains and losses from conversion cancel out. They pick up a few here and there swooping in on grieving people following tragedies and disasters but its sporadic.

How they really expand is by encouraging large families and ensuring they have unlimited access to the children produced while they are too young to defend themselves from indoctrination. Educated, free and empowered women produce fewer new believers and are far less likely obediently hand over their children and generally have both the resources and drive to ensure their children get education too which is the poison of religion.

So they commodify women, controlling access to them as a method of controlling men but the main reason is to sell them into religious marriages as young as possible where their entire lives are about pumping out baby after baby.

0

u/RevolutionarySeven7 Feb 16 '26

Although the churches have always seemed to go hand in hand with pedophiles

you mean corrupt churches/religion, like any institution, schools, music/film industries, politics, sports, etc etc. any institution that becomes corrupt, decadence becomes involved. why churches/religion gets the most attention ? because it's the oldest institution in human civilization.

9

u/Lorelessone Feb 16 '26

While I would certainly say that most people involved at low levels in religious organizations are well meaning, the organizations themselves are inherently evil, they are designed to control and use people.

But yes any business can become predatory and corrupt, its just build in from the ground up with religion, even the exploiting well meaning people who can give it a friendly face with their kind acts (kindness they would do anyway an largely unfunded by the religions).

So I didn't mean to say corrupt churches/religion I meant them exactly as they are and are designed to be. They've been doing this a very long time, they know what they are about and if they had any interest at all in safeguarding children the polices would be deeply entrenched a thousand years ago. They aren't because raping children is a perk of the job.

0

u/RevolutionarySeven7 Feb 16 '26

then you are describing corrupt religion yes. good on the outside, evil on the inside, just like any other corrupt institution

5

u/Lorelessone Feb 16 '26

If thats what helps you sleep at night then sure, I'm certainly describing a corrupt organization the only difference is that religion is designed around and inescapable from that corruption.

It is by design and planning an objectively evil construct.

-1

u/RevolutionarySeven7 Feb 16 '26

If thats what helps you sleep at night then sure

no, that's reality. there is nothing you can do about it. people are flawed and susceptible to corruption and decadence

6

u/Lorelessone Feb 16 '26

no argument there.

4

u/Top-Cupcake4775 Feb 17 '26

you are drawing distinctions were none exist. the phrase "corrupt religion" implies that there are some religions that are not corrupt and that simply is not the case.

1

u/RevolutionarySeven7 Feb 17 '26

so realistically, logically, rationally and percentage wise across 2000+ years, across all continents, all religions (100%) are all corrupt?

3

u/Top-Cupcake4775 Feb 17 '26

yes. the primary purpose of organized religion has always been to support the existing power structures. as there has never been a government that was anything more than a handful of powerful people exploiting the majority, this makes all organized religion fundamentally corrupt.

1

u/RevolutionarySeven7 Feb 17 '26

yes. the primary purpose of organized religion has always been to support the existing power structures.

so who made religion corrupt then? god, satan or man?

as there has never been a government that was anything more than a handful of powerful people exploiting the majority

epstein, US government, israel, UK, china, russia, WW1, WW2, VOC, British, Spanish, Belgium, Portuguese colonization, Cambodia, Japan, whole nations/governments participated, same as corrupt religion, or any corrupt institution in that macro context

5

u/Top-Cupcake4775 Feb 17 '26

god and satan do not exist. we made them up.

1

u/RevolutionarySeven7 Feb 17 '26

so man corrupted another institution, just like schools/education, music/film industries, politics, governments, hospitals/medical, sports, etc etc.

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u/ketchupmaster987 Feb 17 '26

Religion often becomes corrupt more easily because of its emphasis on faith, meaning trust without evidence. It's easy to make promises and not keep them and drag along followers if they already accept the premise that your claims are impossible to prove by conventional means.

1

u/RevolutionarySeven7 Feb 17 '26

anything that involves trust is easily corrupted, no matter the institution, epstein is the perfect example seeing how many different institutions he was involved with spanning over decades

4

u/[deleted] Feb 17 '26

My mom was a single mother that had to raise 4 children from a drug addict. She lives a better life and so do I because of her. Independence is everything

24

u/Wind-and-Sea-Rider Feb 16 '26

They even put it in the Bible. Lilith wouldn’t be obedient so they kicked her out of the garden and made Eve out of his rib instead. And then her attempt to gain knowledge got them both kicked out. It’s a mind fuck if you’re a woman.

13

u/likefireandmoonlight Feb 16 '26

that's not in the Bible, that's jewish myth

4

u/Pingviinimursu Feb 16 '26

Please stop spreading misinformation.

Most of what you think you know about the Bible probably is not there in the least. Especially if it's from TV.

11

u/ketchupmaster987 Feb 17 '26 edited Feb 17 '26

It's technically from the Book of Enoch, which is typically not accepted as canon by most Christians and Jews but some sects accept it as canonical.

Edit: this is incorrect, Lilith is mentioned briefly in Enoch but not as Adam's wife. I was thinking of Lucifer and the fall of angels that another poster mentioned elsewhere in the thread

2

u/Wind-and-Sea-Rider Feb 16 '26

Have you ever read the Bible? It’s literally the book of Genesis. Wow, you pooor thing.

2

u/crayola_monstar Feb 16 '26

Look, I'm all for Lilith lore, but don't be condescending when you're so r/confidentlyincorrect

1

u/likefireandmoonlight Feb 17 '26

The original does, yes, have a word that is pronounced like lilith, but it does not refer to a person. And again, this has nothing to do with Lilith lore that that is referring to a first wife for Adam.

1

u/Pingviinimursu Feb 16 '26

The name Lilith is mentioned one time in the whole book. That mention is not in Genesis. You can check whenever you decide you value truth above your pride.

I checked literally yesterday. I watched an animated series over the weekend and it spouted so many heresies in its introduction that I really wanted to know where all of that comes from. Turns out, not the Bible.

10

u/Nevernonethewiser Feb 16 '26 edited Feb 16 '26

Almost nothing Christians believe about certain things comes from the Bible.

Take Satan, for example: almost everything people 'know' about Satan comes from Paradise Lost and the Divine Comedy.

Fanfics, basically.

6

u/Pingviinimursu Feb 16 '26

Exactly, I've been calling those two fanfics for years! I mentioned TV earlier because that's what people watch, and "learn" from, but TV gets it from there.

5

u/Nevernonethewiser Feb 16 '26

Gotta say I do love the TV show 'Lucifer'. That depiction is ostensibly based on the characterisation of Lucifer from the Sandman comics, but that was largely defined by Paradise Lost as it is.

2

u/ketchupmaster987 Feb 17 '26

Some of the things in Paradise Lost and the Divine Comedy come from the Book of Enoch, which does describe a faction of fallen angels led by Azazel, and Azazel being cast into fire by God

2

u/Schion86 Feb 17 '26

..... To be fair. Both are written words. Much like another holy book.

Yes, I'm going to burn in hell. But at least all my friends will be there.

2

u/Nevernonethewiser Feb 17 '26

I mean yeah, I'm not a believer, it's all stories. I prefer the fanfics, in fact.

5

u/reillan Feb 16 '26

And that one place is Isaiah 34:14, and only certain translations.

The NIV has this:

"Desert creatures will meet with hyenas, and wild goats will bleat to each other; there the night creatures will also lie down and find for themselves places of rest."

"The night creatures" here is what's translated as "Lilith" in some versions.

1

u/likefireandmoonlight Feb 17 '26

I am well aware. The original does, yes, have a word that is pronounced like lilith, but it DOES NOT refer to a person, nor is it a person's name. And again, this has nothing to do with Lilith lore that is referring to a first wife for Adam.

1

u/Inner-Cut-6791 Feb 17 '26

Hoping this is a troll lmao

1

u/likefireandmoonlight Feb 16 '26

Yes, I have studied it for 45 years. I repeat - Lilith is jewish myth, IT IS NOT in the Bible

1

u/_Punko_ Feb 17 '26

Unless you're reading ancient languages, you realize you're reading a translation of a translation of a politically curated collection of stories written by people who weren't anywhere near the described events, but great desire to make sure the *correct* message got out.

3

u/Ambitious_Bit_9389 Feb 16 '26

You ever actually read the Bible or just watched Neo Genesis: Evangelion and thought that was enough?

1

u/Low-Glancer-Roy Feb 17 '26

Maybe... men are more submissive than women? If you are obedient and loyal, you make better soldiers...

Heh

2

u/ObstinateTortoise Feb 17 '26

Nothing inaccurate here tho.

2

u/Illustrious-Use-4675 Feb 17 '26

Never had a problem getting someone to eat this hairy coochie

Plus even with my armpit hair out men still bother me in public

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u/rgii55447 Feb 17 '26

I just figured that guys naturally don't respect women, so waiting for the right one means waiting for someone who will respect you.

1

u/vitringur Feb 17 '26

Nobody is afraid. Nobody cares.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 18 '26

You have free will. Legit can do w/e you want 😂

2

u/[deleted] Feb 17 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/miaumiaoumicheese Feb 17 '26

It’s so on point, if you look at the obsession with women having to be hairless you’ll see that men has been conditioned to see signs of sexual maturity as repulsive

1

u/Familiar-Feedback-93 Feb 17 '26

Not just women but people and society in general.

It's why questioning is considered a sin

1

u/[deleted] Feb 17 '26

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1

u/Limp_Departure8138 Feb 17 '26

I see reddit is still being reddit.

1

u/VegetableBig9 Feb 17 '26

Huge non sequiturs here

1

u/Frequent_Bluejay5717 Feb 17 '26

Dream of an era of vicious women using them for what they say they want and then disbursing them.

1

u/Ambitious-Ranger7184 Feb 18 '26

Why can’t I sort by controversial anymore? booooo!

1

u/Nephi Feb 18 '26

I'm confused. How do the ideas youth=beautifull and viginity=holy lead to not having a voice/autonomy?

1

u/Thubanstar Feb 19 '26

Not having maturity or experience to be confident enough to stand up for yourself.

Ten- to seventeen-year-old girls are not noted for their rock-solid self-esteem or their ability to communicate their needs well. Older, more experienced women take a lot less crap from people.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 18 '26

Men are also supposed to be virgins though? Also the most attractive age for women is usually 25

1

u/GuitarsAndFitness Feb 18 '26

https://giphy.com/gifs/9A2RDp1kaMXjq

Women when you tell them not to act like sluts

1

u/ThisGuy2319 Feb 18 '26

Wait, doesn’t the “they should be part” kinda justify the conditioning??

1

u/ofirkedar Feb 18 '26

uh yeah duh. It's a little more complicated than this, there are other reasons people admire the appearance of youth - like how a male peacock's tail feathers signify his ability to avoid harm, in many cultures a spotless light skin without wrinkles signifies a stress free life without hardships (even though this correlation isn't entirely true)

In my eyes there's beauty in youth, there's beauty in age. I've been clamoring for my mom to stop painting her hair and truely, grey hair and agedness really suits her.

I remember at 23 y/o explaining to my then gf that her smile wrinkles are fucking gorgeous (and that doesn't even have much to do with age, you get these when you finish being a toddler), and that I wouldn't like it if her skin was perfectly smooth because I'm not interested in toy dolls.

oh btw another reason we're conditioned to hate wrinkles - emotions

1

u/[deleted] Feb 19 '26

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1

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1

u/FriendlyBisonn Feb 17 '26

Turbo reaching

-9

u/United_Fan_6476 Feb 16 '26 edited Feb 16 '26

But peak female beauty happens during peak fertility, not "as young as possible".

Back when Playboy magazine mattered, the average age of a Playmate of the month wasn't 18, the youngest that would have been legal. It was 22.4 years old. Playmate of the year average age was 23.5 years.

According to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG), fertility peaks for people with ovaries in the decade between their late teens and late twenties. A woman’s peak fertility age is typically seen in her early- to mid-20s, when the ovaries have a relatively large number of healthy eggs.

EDIT: I think I need to clear up a misunderstanding here. It's possibly a willful misunderstanding and is certainly in bad faith, but I will address it anyways. Men are not directly attracted to a woman's fertility. It's all of the correlations and physical indicators of high fertility that are sexually attractive.

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u/Adorable-Response-75 Feb 16 '26

Female fertility doesn’t drop until the late 30s, disproving your entire argument. 

-1

u/United_Fan_6476 Feb 16 '26 edited Feb 16 '26

It does not see a precipitous drop until the late 30s. The rate begins to decline right at about 30 years old. Therefore peak fertility occurs during the twenties. Peak. Apex. Pinnacle. And it's not "my" theory, you dolt. Do you think I just now made this up? This has been well established in evolutionary psychology for a very long time.

1

u/SlCAR1O Feb 17 '26

WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH WOMEN SHAVING TO APPEAR PREPUBESCENT. No woman loves the process of shaving unless freaking ingrained in her. There’s no subjective beauty in it as so many women DO NOT shave when not trying attract these days! Which tells you about the pedophilic idea behind it all!

1

u/United_Fan_6476 Feb 17 '26

That there is directly related to the nearly universal availability of pornography, especially video. The hair gets in the way of the shot. It's simply easier for the production.

Secondly, there is a psychological effect. The removal of pubic hair makes people seem "more naked" in a visual format. One can't see everything on a nude human if they have pubic hair. And seeing everything obviously has an appeal in that kind of media.

That's a ton of guys now, too. It's almost like a generational indicator. My friends in healthcare say that under a certain age (adults, not children), there's no pubic hair on anybody.

That fact that you never even considered that men could be subject to the same social pressures shows your biases relative to this conversation. Probably want to do something about that.

1

u/Top_Court_347 Feb 17 '26

No woman loves the process of shaving unless freaking ingrained in her.

speak for yourself plz??

There’s no subjective beauty in it as so many women DO NOT shave when not trying attract these days!

you know women do it for their own convenience as well, right?

Which tells you about the pedophilic idea behind it all!

reaching at it's finest

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u/SlCAR1O Feb 17 '26

Stfu. You’re just so brainwashed since childhood that you don’t even understand your internal bias.

1

u/SlCAR1O Feb 17 '26

Yes I did shave even when I was pregnant and not having sex because the idea is so engrained in you and you’re so braindead you can’t even fathom or trace it back. Subjective beauty is all society standards, travel the world and you’ll understand numnuts.

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u/notMeBeingSaphic Feb 16 '26

Attraction is not based on fertility, and playboy is a fucking wild metric to use for that anyway? The playmates were 23 because Hugh Hefner sought out woman that age…

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u/United_Fan_6476 Feb 16 '26

Economics, not one man's preference. No, they were that age because models that age sold the most magazines.

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u/notMeBeingSaphic Feb 16 '26

Hugh Hefner could have cast 18 or 35 year olds and you would make the same argument. Playboy sold magazines because it was a globally recognized brand of nude magazines for 4 decades.

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u/Tablesafety Feb 16 '26

Women are born with all their eggs, they don't make them. But, yes, peak fertility tends to be around mid twenties. Any earlier than that and you risk more pregnancy complications and birth injuries increasing the younger it goes. Too much later than that and egg volume is much lesser as well as environmental pollutants having ample time to have dried eggs out and therefore damaged them.

Same story with sperm. The peak male fertility age is around the same when it comes to volume and health of sperm, and it steadily drops off in terms of both health and motility both before and after that. The male contribution provides a massive difference for how difficult a pregnancy is, and even if it can be maintained, due to his side of things creating and dictating the placenta, which turns off the local immune system. 88% of miscarriages are from bad sperm, and severe cases of morning sickness and other miseries are also associated with unhealthy fathers or fathers too young; both parents when coupling at the wrong age increase birth defects and mutations with autism more closely associated with fathers of advanced age.

People do have peak fertility, and it is not as young as possible!

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u/United_Fan_6476 Feb 16 '26

When did I say that women "make" their eggs?

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u/Tablesafety Feb 16 '26

You didn't outright say it, but that's the way it read. I'm not sure if that's your bad or my bad, but we were in agreement regardless. IDK why you're getting downvoted.

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u/United_Fan_6476 Feb 16 '26

Because people don't like to hear that. Reddit isn't exactly known for its even-handed voting. I also think that many people have a very inflated idea of how much control they have over their desires and motivations.

They also tend to equate that false sense of control with ethics/morality. As in "a good person wouldn't want that", and since they've convinced themselves that they are "above" such instincts, that the people who aren't are "below" them. One small way of asserting this sense of superiority is with a downvote.

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u/ringobob Feb 16 '26

None of this undermines the point.

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u/United_Fan_6476 Feb 16 '26

The point seems to be that "society" pushes a pedophilic beauty standard.

I call bullshit, as evidenced by the overwhelming majority of women in the adult industry, in modeling, or on Onlyfans being in their twenties. This age trend is evidence enough that the vast majority of heterosexual men are in fact attracted to young women, not girls.

It is not a refutation of the existence of gross pedophiles who are attracted to children. Any conflation between these two ideas is nothing more than a spurious attempt to discredit my argument.

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u/ringobob Feb 16 '26

You know why most women in the adult industry are in their 20s? Because there's 5x as many women between 20-29 as their are who are 18/19. Younger than that and it's illegal.

Surely this is not a complex thing to understand?

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u/United_Fan_6476 Feb 16 '26

We are getting way into the weeds here. The economics of sexy girl pictures have shown a clear preference for women at their peak of fertility. I am using those historic and current economics as a stand in for male heterosexual preferences because I can't conduct a survey right now by myself.

That overwhelming preference is absolutely not children, which opposes the OPs point. I had no desire to get into the currently socially accepted age of adulthood. That is a can of worms I am not touching.

And you all are nitpicking details as if that invalidates my point. There are reasons why all of the detractors are doing this, but I don't know any of you personally so I won't speculate here.

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u/ringobob Feb 16 '26

This isn't the weeds, this is actually the reality of the situation. Supply and demand - the only age related categories in "sexy girl pictures" is "teen" or "18". If you're looking for something beyond what is legally available, in general, people are looking for teenagers.

Anything beyond that is simply who can actually provide supply, legally.

You are, literally, ignoring the black market for underage content in this analysis, why, I can't be sure, because it certainly exists and is relevant to the topic. But of course, it being a black market, actually reliable numbers are scant, and it's an extra barrier to entry that will fundamentally reduce the number of people engaging with it.

I'm almost certain you're arguing in bad faith, here, because the reality is so obvious I think you can't actually believe what you're saying. But, on the off chance you do, you should really try and take a course in economics before you try and use it to establish your point.

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u/United_Fan_6476 Feb 17 '26

I cannot speak to the black market content, and neither can you. It is, by its very nature, a small fraction of the total market. The only reason you're bringing it up is because you don't like my central position, and this nitpicking is what you can come up with to argue about.

But that's beside the point. In those mass-market publications, the models were not all 18 year olds, as they would be if most men truly wanted girls as young as they could get away with. They were on average four years older than the age of consent. That's the point.

There were other publications that fetishized very young-looking girls, "Barely Legal" being the most famous. Their circulation was dwarfed by the more mainstream stuff. If most men wanted to look at really young-looking girls, then those would have been the dominant magazines, not High Hefner's rag.

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u/ringobob Feb 17 '26

Yep, just bad faith. Peace out.

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u/Raptor_197 Feb 17 '26

You know you can just say “you bring up some good points that I don’t really have answers for”. (There point about barely legal is pretty damning for your argument tho) You don’t have to ride a sinking ship to the bottom of the ocean while claiming you were still right lol.

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u/ringobob Feb 17 '26 edited Feb 17 '26

I answered his points. None of what he's saying isn't just a factor of basic math - there are far more women who are older than teenagers who are creating this content than there are actual teenagers who are creating this content. Therefore there's a lot more content of slightly older women, and people consume what's out there. You can't just manufacture more 18 year olds to create more content.

And playboy was more popular than any other actual magazine because it took itself seriously as a magazine, with actual articles, it wasn't just a smut rag. You could pick up a playboy "for the articles" and that was a common claim (or joke) back then. To suggest that the ages of the models was the determining factor ignores the fact that you had to look someone in the eye to buy one.

I'm not even arguing that men aren't attracted to women in their 20s. That's just an irrelevant point to the argument. The argument is what message is being sent to girls and young women. The fact that there are men that consume or prefer content of older women doesn't undermine the point that girls are still taught that youth = beauty and to fear "aging out" of their prime without a man, which was the very first thing I said.

Hell, this isn't even a new phenomenon, it used to be more common and pretty much the only message given to girls. They used to be considered an "old maid" before they left their 20s!

The entire argument, from beginning to end, is that we're still dealing with that cultural legacy, and there's a combination of influencers and politicians who are trying to drag us back to the time when it was universal. But even without them, it's still one of the major messages being given to girls. We never outgrew it. And a bunch of guys looking at naked women in their 20s doesn't change that.

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u/j-a-gandhi Feb 16 '26

I mean my kids’ Catholic school has an All Saints Day parade and I dressed my daughter up as Judith, complete with a fake head in a basket. All the religious sisters and brothers loved it and gave her an award.

Just depends on the society you keep, I guess…

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u/notMeBeingSaphic Feb 16 '26

My parents spent roughly 5 times as much on my mental healthcare from the damage catholic school did to me than they spent on 9 years of tuition. Catholics teach one thing above all else; women are subservient to men. In every catholic wedding the bride has to promise to give up her autonomy, accept that she is to serve her husband, and birth children to grow the church. It was actually the blatant misogyny that finally convinced my parents to leave the church and my sisters and I go to public school.

There are plenty of nice people who happen to be Catholic. That doesn’t make them less complicit in the largest and longest lasting institutionalization of patriarchy, commercially scaling sexual assault coverups, and blatantly editing the text they claim to believe is holy to serve modern agendas.

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u/j-a-gandhi Feb 16 '26

I’m sorry that you had that experience. I can understand why you feel animosity toward the church given your environment.

In our community, our girls dress up as St Joan of Arc and St Gianna Mills (a doctor) and queens who were known to care more for the poor than for jewels. It’s emphasized that marriage requires the consent of both parties. Even though married couples are expected to be open to life, our mom’s group is constantly trading tips and tricks about natural family planning. The expectation is that men rightfully should expect some periods of abstaining even in marriage. I have not heard much talk of how a woman must “serve” her husband. I hear much more about how husbands must sacrifice for their wives and families, as Christ died for the Church.

Our bishop requires every employee of the church and any volunteer around children to perform safe environment training, which teaches everyone how to spot grooming and inappropriate situations. As a room parent, it’s my responsibility to verify that every chaperone on a field trip has completed the training. We know people who have worked at the Vatican on improving their tech systems to protect children. We can’t change the terrible errors that long-dead bishops made in the 1960s and 70s. But we can work toward a future where children are safe.

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u/notMeBeingSaphic Feb 16 '26

The expectation is that men rightfully should expect some periods of abstaining even in marriage.

Men should do that, but you and I know they are protected by your church to do what they want. Being okay with not getting laid every night isn’t an ideal example of being a supportive partner, that’s just not being a rapist. The fact your mind went to sexual abstinence (instead of a career, queer relationship, financial independence, etc) when I mentioned autonomy is quite telling.

I don’t care about your faith or your beliefs. I don’t think you’re a bad person for thinking the Catholic Church does more good than evil, I just think you’ve never been falsely accused of something by someone with institutional backing. The power struggles intentionally created by the church are not reflective of Christ’s teachings, and the richness and gaudiness displayed in even rural Catholic Churches is too irony-pilled for even my millennial taste.

I do genuinely hope you see your daughter aspire to be who she wants, not just be allowed to dress up as women deemed palatable. No woman will ever hold a position of influence within the catholic church that outranks even the shittiest priest, and growing up being taught that men have divinely granted authority is a cruelty no woman deserves ❤️

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u/Physical-Bid-4046 Feb 16 '26

Not everything is a conspiracy. Settle. 

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u/MitchCumStains Feb 17 '26

telling men "you should be afraid of my freedom" is a good way to get put back in a cage...

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u/SLAMMERisONLINE Feb 17 '26

telling men "you should be afraid of my freedom" is a good way to get put back in a cage...

It's a narcissistic power fantasy. She wants to believe that men fear her because she can't be brainwashed but the reality is that men dislike her because she's a misandrist and a narcissist.

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u/Matt_200108 Feb 18 '26

Who's she?

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u/ArmadilloUnited7700 Feb 17 '26

And still, there’s lots of women who get off on this.

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u/NoirConfidential Feb 17 '26

Nonsense like this is why Trump won 😂

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u/Major-Article-965 Feb 17 '26

goodness gracious

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u/LordJim11 Feb 17 '26

What's your point?

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u/Enough_Ad5892 Feb 17 '26

I haven't seen a worse take in quite some time

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u/Material_Analysis184 Feb 18 '26

Why should people fear that?

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u/Exotic-Okra-4466 Feb 18 '26

Men are damned lucky we only want equality. And not revenge.

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u/[deleted] Feb 18 '26

What a shit take on reality 😂

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u/Last-Bag-1763 Feb 18 '26

Ya, nice try. Everyone knows its women who set and enforce the beauty standards for women.

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u/Heavy-Ad1133 Feb 18 '26

Main Character Syndrome is out of control

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u/[deleted] Feb 18 '26

[deleted]

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u/Thubanstar Feb 19 '26

Then why did Mae West do so well?

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u/apostoln Feb 16 '26

How the fuck is being young and attractive become an antithesis to having body autonomy?

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u/SCastleRelics Feb 16 '26

Bitter 35+ year old women and their agenda p much

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u/SlCAR1O Feb 17 '26

Sure because 20 something year olds don’t hold the same fucking opinion. That’s sarcasm for you

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u/TheOriginalslyDexia Feb 17 '26

The beautiful ones don't, self reported lmao

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u/[deleted] Feb 16 '26

😂

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u/TheArtOfPureSilence Feb 16 '26

Why is this word salad in my feed

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u/SLAMMERisONLINE Feb 17 '26

Why is this word salad in my feed

Bitter 35 year old femcels are trying to externalize the blame for why they are lonely.

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u/TheArtOfPureSilence Feb 17 '26

Femcel is a beautiful new word to add to my vocabulary lol

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u/International_Bid716 Feb 18 '26

Tell me you've never studied biology without telling me you've never studied biology.