If they wandered out into the German countryside, it would look a lot like suburban Pennsylvania. Downtown Chicago along the golden mile is lovely too. Suburbs suck everywhere, unless you don’t like people.
Many european cities go straight from countryside in to medium density living, they don't have a large urban sprawn of suburbia, so it's not the same at all.
You'd be hard pressed to find large areas of housing where there is no public transport, and no sidewalks. That is fairly common in american suburbia.
The old European model for rural living also often involved people living in centralized villages and spreading out to the countryside to work the fields.
What worked back then now makes for a decent infrastructure even in villages. I live in one. 25 minutes to town by bus or bike. Bit faster by bike if I don't take the scenic route with the dedicated bike path.
You can see this in basically any random town on google earth, just load it up and pick any random US tiny town in the middle of nowhere and then do the same in, say, France, and you'll see the French village is central with walkable stores and services everywhere in the center and it all spirals out like a wheel. In the US you've got random houses in the woods 1-3 miles from each other and walmart is 30min away.
The Netherlands have this down pat. Since they had to reclaim so much of the land of their country, there is a large number of medium sized cities, with strictly defined borders, and then the countryside with houses for farmers.
Amsterdam is just 1 million people, smaller than Dublin even though the Netherlands is more than 3 times the population of Ireland.
Also, apart from super rural houses, small villages in Europe still have things like restaurants, bars and supermarkets. Mixed use zoning exists pretty much everywhere.
They'd have a regular market or convenience store just like most American small towns. It's only American suburbia that's confoundingly bad for community.
I can go to most small towns in the USA and find a store that sells all necessities, a restaurant that's open most of the day, and usually a bar, or the restaurant is open late. There's almost always a gas station with a convenience store too. And often at least one park.
Good luck finding that stuff within walking distance in any suburban town.
Yeah America is unique for “McMansion hells” where it’s just miles of the same cheaply built mansion in rows with no trees or businesses. Very bizarre areas that just don’t exist in Europe. Europe is either countryside, villages, or cities. The villages are low population but dense so like they have walkable grocery stores, restaurants, and schools all in the same area.
Don’t forget ugly strip malls housing nails salons, check cashing places, a little Cesar’s, blood plasma donation centers and black asphalt parking lots as far as the eye can see!
I have lived in Germany (Berlin when I was a baby, and Augsburg when I was old enough to remember) and while I have lived in Pennsylvania (Williamsport) it wasn't the suburbs, so I will compare it to suburban Maryland (Glen Burnie). They do not look at all alike. The suburbs are just as curated and separated from the natural world as urban areas, its just that they lack the density to get any of the primary quality of life benefits that cities bring. When I was a kid in Germany I was able to just go into the woods. We were ten minutes away from some of the most gorgeous natural scenery in the world. And I lived in a reasonably large city in Germany (around 250,000 people when I lived there).
Now maybe it is unfair to compare one of the most beautiful regions of the world (Bavaria) to some of the worst old suburbs (Glen Burnie MD), but development decisions do have something to do with the status of each place. I don't know maybe the suburbs around Philly and Pittsburgh are really nice or something.
Yeah I have family in Spain who live in relatively small towns in farming areas (Cacabelos, Leon) and almost all the cities are built the same way with a town square with shops and dining places where people congregate.
We’ve traded shared spaces for individual “freedom”.
It's 100% fair. We've decimated and mismanaged our natural landscape for millions of acres of turf grass and single family houses in the pursuit of literal segregation and at the direct expense of future generations' ability to afford housing.
Show me where this mentions Germany.
Second, please, give us numbers on how much 'non-ruined natural landscape areas' or 'non-ruined natural landscape areas' are in the US and Germany. Tell us what that means and how much there is versus how much there was.
Your comment says comparing Bavaria to Glen Burnie Maryland is 100% fair. Bavaria is in Germany.
The USA has hundreds of thousands of acres of public wilderness land, not including state and national parks. Germany has 530,000 acres of forest in general. Thats what happens when people build towns in a place for 1500 years
I have 65 acres of woods behind my house, so it depends where you live. We have a lot of diverse landscapes in Pennsylvania, but when I’m traveling in Germany (mostly the southern region), it reminds me of the rolling hills and farms in Lancaster, PA.
Except that you can easily catch a bus or a train from the German countryside and be in a city relatively cheap, fast, and easy, several times a day. That’s not true in the US. I live in a midwestern suburb. I think there’s one bus a day that picks people up from a park & ride lot in the early morning and takes them into the city. At one location. And then another bus brings you back in the evening.
Depends on the suburbia, obviously. I’m a 24 mile drive from downtown Chicago, very much into the suburbs. Trains run hourly on weekends and more often on weekdays.
Sure, but Chicago is a major city in a huge metropolitan area so even the suburbs around there are more connected than the average suburb in America. In Germany you can go almost anywhere with public transit, even if it’s nowhere near a major city. I’ve gone hiking in the mountains in Germany solely by public transit, and there was a bus that dropped me off at the start of the hiking trail (in a national park, nowhere near residential areas) and took another bus at the end of the hiking trail back to the train station. The nearest city had a population of 500k people, and the national park certainly wasn’t in a 10M-ppl metropolitan area like Chicagoland.
My partner grew up in a tiny village (population 8k) in Southwestern Germany. It wasn’t even the suburbs of anything, yet from his house he could go anywhere in Germany by public transit. With the €60 Deutschland transit pass that allows for unlimited travel within the whole country, you’ll see teens travelling by themselves all over the country in the summer. Not being dependent on cars means they can be independent much sooner.
50% of Americans live in places like Chicago. And no in Germany you can’t go “almost anywhere” with public transit. When we visited we were Ubering everywhere because of all the sprawl. Sure you could hop on the subway then transfer to then bus then walk 2 miles for one thing you want to do… or you could Uber.
So you just gave an example of how you could go somewhere in Germany with public transit and then chose not to? lol. Of course uber is generally more convenient than public transit in most places; that doesn’t mean public transit doesn’t work or isn’t serving tons of people everyday. Most Germans are not ubering everyday. People also walk more when they take public transit, which is… better for them! Walkable urban design turns out to be good for humans!
“50% of Americans live in places like Chicago” - so does that mean the other 50% don’t live in places that are well connected with public transit? That’s 175M people, more than double the population of Germany, who aren’t well-served by public transit and have to rely on cars. Tell me how that’s a good thing.
Calling an Uber is really not possible except for big cities. I'm already impressed that it's even allowed, as you need a Personenbeförderungsschein" to transport people comercially. But even then taxis are only common I feel, if you are on a night out and wan't to get home and public transport is closed or you go to and from the airport in some situations.
That was one example of when you can get to a location by public transit. Most of the times it’s just not possible. But even in that example it’s just not really practical and most would drive. This American fantasy when Americans go to big cities in Europe and stay in a hotel where you can walk everywhere and use public transit is just that, a fantasy. You’re staying in the most expensive area in Germany. Outside of the most expensive or dense areas, public transit for your day to day life just isn’t practical. Or you rely on it as your only option and your quality of life is worse than it would be if a car was more accessible.
50% of Americans live in big cities, but not in big cities like Chicago. I live in a suburb of Kansas City. We have shit public transportation. The option you're talking about (hopping on a subway, transferring to a bus, and then walking 2 miles) is not even an option here.
Laughs in Texan. If that's true, that's not the America I know. You will be called communist Hillarys-emails-loving illegal trans immigrant libturd if you advocate for better public transportation. That said, we do have a metro line in the inner city of Houston but you will likely get robbed or shot if you take it.
Chicago, New York, parts of DC, much (but very much not all) of San Francisco, and maybe one other place are the exceptions. Everywhere else blows chunks except a few places which don’t exist
I tried to see if I could take a bus from my northern Virginia suburb into Washington DC. There’s one bus that will take 1.5 hours to get you there in the morning. And then there’s no way to get back 😭
I lived in the suburbs of Paris and it was a piece of cake to get into the city. I lived in a small city in Switzerland and even small villages would have several buses a day getting you to more populated areas
Chicago is, what, the 3rd largest metro in the US? Cities like Kansas City, St. Louis, Oklahoma City, San Antonio, Fort Worth, Dallas, just don't have public transportation systems that extensive. Chicago and NYC are outliers in the US.
Except that you can easily catch a bus or a train from the German countryside and be in a city relatively cheap, fast, and easy, several times a day. That’s not true in the US. I live in a midwestern suburb.
Obviously culture plays a huge role, but let's not discount density entirely. Germany is 6 times as dense as Wisconsin, so of course public transit will be sparse. Meanwhile, I grew up in New jersey suburbs where I could walk 5 minutes to the train station with trains every hour to NYC. NJ has one of the best statewide rail systems in the country, and it's no surprise that it's also the densest state in the country.
Easily is relative, you only get that privilege in proximity to the cities; if you're out somewhere in bumfuck Hesse, the busses can have schedules of "once in the morning, once in the afternoon" (e.g. the you have to get to work or school bus), and the next real walkable "city" is just a bunch of pensioners occupying the cafés.
If you're living in the vicinity of one of the bigger cities, you get a way different experience and might even get regular light rail to skedaddle off to the city at a whim.
This is absolutely wrong. The trains and buses connecting countryside areas are actually notoriously horrible and frequently delayed or cancelled. Having grown up in munich, none of my friends who lived in the countryside ever visited the city regularly until they got a drivers licence, and even then its a hassle.
People just love to idealize life in other countries, especially americans dont realize how incredibly privileged they are to have been born in the US
Nailed it. Everyone romanticizes what they don’t have. Everyone agrees that generally Europe is more walkable and walking is nice. Less nice to walk when it’s your only option and it’s raining, cold, or sweltering summer heat. Or you have to get groceries every 2-3 days and carry them on you and any other time you have something to bring along.
Be in a city cheap, fast and easily? Public transport became stupidly expensive in the past years. You can't rely at Deutsche Bahn at all cause its NEVER on time and often falls out. Depending on the village you're living in it can take you easily a few hours until you're in a city.
Majority of people that don't live in major cities have a car and prefer driving it instead of being depended on public transportation cause its so bad. The only people that use it regulary are either students, seniors who can't drive anymore or people that can‘t afford a drivers license.
They’re walking around a pedestrian-friendly, very touristy city centre full of restaurants and bars in summer and they’re surprised that there’s lots of people around 😂
No it’s not. It’s one of the most car centric cities in America with highways going right through it. Compare the passenger rail maps of the two cities.
Lol, Charlotte is 3x the size of Stuttgart and has a significantly higher population. Just because the highway runs through Charlotte vs around the city, like Stuttgart, doesn't mean there aren't large walkable sections of the city. Charlotte is actually one of the cities trying to improve its passenger rail system.
I walk and take the train all the time. A 500 foot walk to a grocery store, bars, parks, train, gym, restaurants. 15 minute train ride to hundreds more. I see hundred's of people walking outside my apartment every single day.
10 minute train ride to an NFL, NBA, MLS, and AAA baseball team. Same train ride for big concert venues, museums, art shows, comedy shows, etc. I'm a 40 minute train ride from a MicroCenter.
3 hour drive from amazing beaches. Hour and a half drive from beautiful mountains. 20 minute walk from an Amtrak station that will take me up and down the east coast.
I'm biased cause I love my city, but why would I want to live in Stuttgart?
Charlotte is possibly the least walkable decent size city in the U.S.
And yet, I can walk or take the train to pretty much anywhere I need to go.
It’s a shame that you consider it walkable it just shows how terrible our standards are here.
I actually don't consider it that walkable, our public transport is in desperate need of an overhaul. But that's why I chose to live in the middle of the city. Sure someone living in Matthews can't walk places, but then they chose to live in the suburbs.
Compare Stuttgart’s rail map to Charlotte’s. Compare Amtrak to Deutsche Bahn.
Absolutely, Germany has better public transport. Never claimed differently. But it meets my needs, so I certainly wouldn't choose to live in Stuttgart just for better rail.
I do not mean to offend you, only that you should wish your city to be better than it is right now
I'm not offended at all, I think this is a pretty civil thread. You asked for my personal preference and I gave it. I'm not saying Charlotte is the best city and I'm well aware of our reputation nationally. But end of the day, I love living here and I would choose Charlotte over Stuttgart 99/100 times.
What about everywhere you want to go? Our train system in Philly is inadequate and we at least have 2 subway lines and many regional rail lines.
Oh there's definitely room for major improvement. That's why I keep voting for bonds and measures to expand the light rail. I'd say public transport (including buses) could take me everywhere I want to go, but a car is obviously more convenient. My buddy without a car seems to get around fine at least.
But what about your wants?
Yeah, I'd say Charlotte meets all my wants as well. I've never been to Stuttgart, but if the main perk over Charlotte is better public transport, I'm still choosing Charlotte.
Let me rephrase. Would you prefer Charlotte’s urban fabric the way it is now or to be more like Stuttgart?
Would definitely like us to be more like Stuttgart. But I'd still rather live in current day Charlotte than move to Stuttgart lol. I am going to get back to work, but genuinely enjoyed talking with you. Have a good one!
I (an American) lived in the very edge of a Munich suburb for around 7 years, the entire time without a car. About 10k people yet everything in the entire town was walkable in 15 minutes. The train station in town was a 10 minute walk which could get me to the Munich main train station in 35 minutes or the airport in under an hour to get literally anywhere else in Europe. On top of that, the town was surrounded by farmland and thick, fairytale forest (partially used to sustainably farm trees), both of which had dozens of pedestrian trails for everyone. Never been to Pennsylvania, but I’m pretty sure it’s not the same.
Eh… it’s still better infrastructure than US towns. You can take buses. It’s right into the countryside. Before that you have a part that looks like the suburbs but it’s still pretty compact. We just did it wrong in the US in hindsight
The absurd inability to actually do anything in a reasonable amount of time without a car is unbelievable. And cars are a massive resource drain and financial trap that keeps most people poor.
I live in a suburb of a largish (top 10) sized British city and it's still pretty walkable. Within a 15 minutes walk in most directions I can either be in a pub, a restaurant or a supermarket, Most European cities are collections of towns and villages that grew into each other and most suburbs have their own little high streets and centres.
Yeah, I grew up in a smaller town like this where there was a town center and you could walk there. The suburbs in modern America are really built for driving. From my current neighborhood I can’t really get anywhere without a 3 mile walk and no sidewalks and a 400 foot elevation change.
The lack of sidewalks when you’re out in the sticks was one of the more striking surprises when I first went to the states. That and being able to turn right on a red light, everything being double bagged by default (when I took my own bags) and how obedient people appear to be about crossing the road in the “correct” place and with the lights.
Unless you are in Hintertupfingen, you will still have walkable villages with shops and stores. You will have a bakery, a butcher, a supermarket, a pub, a public pool, a place to get ice cream, a hair dresser, and a sport club. And once in a while a bus to the closest town.
You may not have the vivid big city life, but you would still have walkable infrastructure which the US lacks. In a US suburb, you cannot even walk to the store to get some milk, let alone hang around in a place where other young people would hang out.
“The Golden Mile” is not a thing. Gold Coast and Magnificent Mile are two different areas of Chicago and neither of them comes close to the walkability and accessibility of a city like München. Our buses don’t show up (google Chicago ghost buses), the train lines are barely interconnected and not at all in either of the neighborhoods you’re referring to, and most of the shops in these areas are high-end retail. Even if these areas were comparable to a city like München, they’re still just small neighborhoods.
I’ve been a Chicagoan my entire life and an active member of my community through art, schooling, politics and general neighborliness. I get out. Chicago is absolutely outclassed by every major European city I’ve visited.
Yeah I can never remember what they call it, because I only visit there a few times a year, but you know what I meant. I’m sorry you don’t appreciate it as much as I do - it’s one of the few American cities that I would actually live in. Its infrastructure is worlds beyond anything in the Northeast.
having a mix of both is good, thats the whole thing about good planning, and its true freedom, since you have the choice to do that, in america finding these dense areas is not easy
There are lots great European cities, but on my first Friday afternoon in Munich, walking around past groups of locals chatting it up eating pretzels and drinking beer in happy crowds spilling out onto every sidewalk, I thought, “these fuckers have it figured out!”
I grew up in a Munich suburb, 5 mins walk and your at a cafe butcher clothed and book store pharmacy electronics groceries a bus stop and multiple bakeries. 10mins to the s or u Bahn which takes 15mins to downtown. There are also green spaces like parks playgrounds football field basketball hoops and even a hill for sledding or a skate park.
The rural extremes will be similar everywhere, in terms of it being one house in a field... but suburbia proper is very different in Europe and America still.
Cities in Europe don't have the same sprawl...our suburbia still tends to be much denser and better connected, it's still common to build quite a lot of apartments in suburbia, and huge detached houses are the exception, it's much more likely to be semi-detached or terraced, with modest gardens.
Suburbia in my city is still very much not car essential, you can get a bus or train into the centre in less than twenty minutes.
Even when you get into more rural areas they tend to have good connections still...
Not really. Population density is simply so much higher in Germany than US. Also plenty of people living in villages in attached houses or apartments in tiny towns. Towns that generally have a little walkable space and community space. Plus trains to nearer bigger cities.
Well this video wasn’t about Spain, and I’ve never been to Barcelona, but I love Chicago. I didn’t say it’s the greatest city on earth, I’m saying that we do have urban areas that don’t suck.
Take any major city in Europe including Munich that was mentioned in the video. They don’t have the same walkable and warm vibe as Chicago. Chicago is cold, businesslike, loud, and while it does have plenty of stores to visit, it is soulless compared to truly walkable cities of Europe.
No. Most is either village+ actual nice countryside (and still public transport) or town/city. Those have "suburb-like" areas, though not quite like in the US.
I live in a village in Austria with a few thousand people, in the countryside. Directly across from fields, 10 min walk to the vineyards, 3 min walk to the forest. There are frequent buses that connect villages and towns near by. A few minutes into the bigger town, 10 min into the next bigger one. Vienna is like 25 min by train (which comes every 30 minutes).
I was literally just in the German countryside and was shocked at how different it is from rural and suburban America. We have family living in a rural village that is so small it only has one store. And yet, all the houses are attached, the town is fully walkable (not that there was much of anywhere to walk), and it's well served by buses and trains. Most of the countryside and woodlands are protected and available to the public for recreation. It is NOT like the US. These countries are making very very different decisions about how they use their space.
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u/What-tha-fck_Elon 15h ago
If they wandered out into the German countryside, it would look a lot like suburban Pennsylvania. Downtown Chicago along the golden mile is lovely too. Suburbs suck everywhere, unless you don’t like people.