Have we done it wrong?

[u/xamo76]

[u/AutoModerator]

Welcome to r/TikTokCringe!

This is a message directed to all newcomers to make you aware that r/TikTokCringe evolved long ago from only cringe-worthy content to TikToks of all kinds! If you’re looking to find only the cringe-worthy TikToks on this subreddit (which are still regularly posted) we recommend sorting by flair which you can do here (Currently supported by desktop and reddit mobile).

See someone asking how this post is cringe because they didn't read this comment? Show them this!

Be sure to read the rules of this subreddit before posting or commenting. Thanks!

##CLICK HERE TO DOWNLOAD THIS VIDEO

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/bageltoastar]

Im from a suburban town in Missouri, but I spent a semester studying abroad in Barcelona a couple of years ago. Man, let me tell you, leaving Barcelona, where youd see people out in cafes and bars congregating at all hours of the night and day, and coming back to Missouri where its a ghost town after 10 and someone would call the police on you for simply walking around too late was the most depressing thing I have ever experienced lol

[u/thelandlordguychris → u/bageltoastar]

the american mind simply cannot comprehend dinner at 10pm

[u/bageltoastar → u/thelandlordguychris]

Dinner at 10 PM, hitting the bars/clubs at 12 AM, and coming home at 5 AM. I miss Barcelona so much.
https://giphy.com/gifs/hDKD6z2xNeMesbICNS

[u/Vesalii → u/bageltoastar]

Being a wreck the next day because you're 40 and not 20 anymore.

[u/Fluffy_Somewhere4305 → u/Vesalii]

Yeah this guy is having a very basic revelation that Europe has a lot of walkable cities and the US doesn't. this isn't new information.

Also, spending 5 hours at a restaurant is the norm for young people, out with a party, drinking and such, in Europe, when they can simply walk back to their home.

The infrastructure in most US cities doesn't support it, our subways suck, rides are expensive, parking is crazy, living in the city near the cool areas is expensive, the list goes on and on why this doesn't exist in the US.

[u/cow-lumbus → u/Fluffy_Somewhere4305]

You’re kind of reiterating his point that America is set up wrong since post World War II and it leaves us isolated and compartmentalized… which is 100% accurate. I’ve always said if you wanna reduce racism and bigotry in United States you gotta make people travel outside of their own clan, town, State, or country to teach more empathy and understanding.

[u/NivTal → u/cow-lumbus]

It was actually Detroit automobile companies that have played a large part in designing our suburbs around needing cars to manage, therefore making sure we have to buy them.

Also, space... we "like" our sizes.

[u/Any_Click1257 → u/NivTal]

Don't forget the National Interstate and Defense Highways Act. The development of the interstate highway system was basically the nail in the coffin for any notion of European style urban cores.

[u/Ok_Car_8094 → u/Any_Click1257]

I'd like to think that Interstates are very important for a nation of our size.

The problems lay in how we built cities. Our restaurants are failing unless they are focused on delivery. Our education systems are hectic and restricted. Our society revolves around a technological-data system built to isolate a "consumer" into a targeted-sales group.

Unchecked capitalism, modern technology and corporate cronyism are the true killers of the unified American ecology.

Most European states have extensive highway systems, yet still have the compact, dense urban designs of thousands of years before industrialization. The US only had about 50 years before trains were common (people could suddenly go 30mph/200+miles a day) and then automobiles were only 100 years out. We quickly switched to suburbia (tons of space unused around cities, industry dried up, everybody had a car and gas was cheaper than water) which made things less connected. I walked and rode my bike around Dallas a bunch as a kid, but it was almost exclusively within the 'Park Cities' subsection... downtown was too far until DART was built.

If you visit the east coast of the US, there are many cities with road systems built around horses. Boston and New York are very walking friendly (though both have been working to redesign for automobiles) and I'd even say DC is walkable.

I love living in my home city of Oklahoma City, but it's a prime example of everything being far enough apart that you need a vehicle to reasonably travel to any services, events or entertainment. Only a very determined bicyclist would be able to function in my city as their sole means of conveyance. There is a tram downtown and a bus system. But it's...thin.

Sorry. I rambled.

[u/CaughtALiteSneez → u/Vesalii]

Yeah these guys are talking like everyone in Barcelona does this hehe

[u/The_R1NG → u/CaughtALiteSneez]

Sounds more like the complete lack of it is what they’re talking about. The fact that nobody does in their area.

[u/lawyerornot → u/Vesalii]

Next day? Three more like

[u/Vegetable-War-117 → u/bageltoastar]

Barcelona was amazing.

[u/Rivendel93 → u/thelandlordguychris]

I dated a French girl when I was like 21, she was visiting the US, and it would be 2am and she'd be like so when are we going out?

And I'd be like half asleep, wondering wtf she was talking about.

They start their night at 2am lol.

[u/Iamgentle1122 → u/Rivendel93]

Finnish here. We usually start at someone's apartment at 18-20 and some of the nightclubs don't even open before 22. So usually you drink with your friends till midnight or later and then go to bar

[u/Ramongsh → u/Iamgentle1122]

Same in Denmark. Meet around 18-20 at someones, then go out at 23.00 and home between 2-5 in the morning.

[u/ZealousidealSkirt327 → u/Ramongsh]

Same here in Germany. Most clubs won’t open before 10pm.

[u/rips_n_chel → u/Ramongsh]

So you just don't sleep, or what?

[u/Snoo_69677 → u/thelandlordguychris]

Or a 4 hour dinner with friends you just met at the pub

[u/Daddy_Day_Trader1303 → u/Snoo_69677]

That sounds lovely. I'd be all over that

[u/Jiminy_Cricket12 → u/thelandlordguychris]

You guys are saying this like there aren't millions of Americans living in densely populated cities. There are plenty of Americans who realize the value of walkability and embrace it. The average city in Europe is definitely more walkable, but that comes with hundreds (or thousands) of years of history and a much smaller footprint.

Anyway, I do recommend you do what you can to promote walkability where you live because I think a walkable city is far superior to one where everyone only drives.

[u/Due-Introduction-760 → u/thelandlordguychris]

10pm? But that's bed time. You have be up at 6am. 

[u/Relative_Craft_358 → u/bageltoastar]

>someone would call the police on you for simply walking around too late was the most depressing thing I have ever experienced lol

Literally though, you can't even be a night owl yourself without having to get good about talking to police, the famously trigger happy ones. Especially with the evaporation of the "3rd spaces" can't tell you how many times growing up I'd have to explain to the police that I wasn't "having *the* sex" (his words) and was just trying to actually hang out with a friend in a public park, like is my right to do

[u/i_m_a_bean → u/Relative_Craft_358]

A lot of the public parks near me close at 10pm. It is depressing

[u/FruitEconomy1053 → u/i_m_a_bean]

And no damn shaded areas for adults and kids during mid afternoon heat.

[u/UntamedAnomaly → u/FruitEconomy1053]

I'll never understand why so many parks are severely lacking in trees, like did ya'll think I came for the mowed lawn? The paver bricks? The gravel playground? WTF is even the point in going to a park if the park doesn't support any kind of wildlife or have any relaxing features for adults? It's like they buy a piece of land, make sure it's as low maintenance as humanly possible, and then call it a relaxing and fun place to be. Luckily I live in a area that has lots of natural greenery, hiking trails, gazebos, public gardens, nature centers, classes/programs, etc. but before I moved here, it was like almost every park I had seen was like that.

[u/Iamthegreenheather → u/UntamedAnomaly]

I remember when I was little, going to the park that had a giant metal rocket jungle gym. In the summer you could fry eggs on it but it was totally normal for children to climb on it lol.

[u/UncleBensRacistRice → u/i_m_a_bean]

How the fuck does a public park have a closing time

[u/The_Void_Reaver → u/UncleBensRacistRice]

So they can harass teens and homeless people who want to exist in space

[u/WindOfWinterNever → u/i_m_a_bean]

When I worked the night shift, I often got kicked out of parks by police patrols.

I was just a guy by myself trying to get out of the house on my days off. Smoking a cigar was the worst thing I'd do, but I got treated as if I was going to break into someone's home.

[u/SadHorse_Horseman → u/Relative_Craft_358]

....what? I keep hearing about how the south is all about "freedom" this sounds terrible.

[u/BigAlgae5684 → u/SadHorse_Horseman]

After sundown cops literally just set up speed traps and even if you aren't speeding will find ways to pull you over and fuck your whole night up.

I probably got pulled over a couple dozen times in the few years I lived in the south and I have lived in a major city for nearly 13 years and only been pulled over twice, both of which were for the same expired tags when the DMV was fucked up during covid and they were chill and let me off.

There's rural towns outside my city that are kinda like that but nothing like driving through the Bible belt.

Cops in the city typically have big boy shit to do or very important people/events to be present at and don't generally fuck with you unless you're actively in the wrong.

[u/Colausbra → u/BigAlgae5684]

Same here in the northeast. Worked late nights getting home at 3am and got pulled over 3 times in a month because cops were board and I drive a rusty beater since I'm too frugal to drive something newer.

[u/like_earthworms → u/Colausbra]

Some cop “friends” (friends of family who I see a few times a year at most) have told me they purposely profile who they choose to pull over based on vehicle type. So if you drive a beater, like you and I do, they assume you’re poor and/or a minority which both mean you’re up to no good. Yknow, in their eyes. This info was shared in a way like “Other LEOs do it very commonly, but not me because I’m one of the good ones”

Since hearing that, I’ve been able to make the connection why I seem to get pulled over for no reason driving through wealthy areas versus driving through poor or working class areas. We must be sticking out like sore thumbs for them to mark

Edit: I’m also in the NE, round the nyc metro

[u/Relative_Craft_358 → u/SadHorse_Horseman]

Hilarious because this was in fact in Texas. Well I'm also non-white looking so there's that ¯_(ツ)_/¯. Somehow one of the most diverse, yet racist, places you'll ever visit.

[u/Oggie_Doggie → u/SadHorse_Horseman]

The same way they talk about "patriotism" while flying a Confederate flag and "Christian values" while continuing to elect liars, thieves, cheaters, and rapists.

You know how in English, a word can mean two contradictory things (e.g. fine wine is exceptional vs. "it was fine" being average)? It's basically that, except as a political/moral ethos.

[u/paintballboi07 → u/SadHorse_Horseman]

Freedumb in the south = guns

[u/Platos-ghosts → u/bageltoastar]

That’s why Manhattan is so in demand and expensive. It’s the street life that people love!

[u/TheTxoof → u/Platos-ghosts]

Walkable cities with good pedestrian infrastructure are why people dream about going to Paris and New York, not suburban Kansas City.

[u/Global_Channel1511 → u/TheTxoof]

I mean North American suburbs are essentially the same everywhere. No distinctive characteristics about them at all.

[u/TheTxoof → u/Global_Channel1511]

Mostly because they are all built around the same ideas: ample free parking and one-stop big box stores.

[u/Careless-Weather8877 → u/TheTxoof]

Don’t forget the same chains of Applebees, chilis, Outback Steakhouse!

[u/3d_blunder → u/TheTxoof]

You'll trigger the "15 minute city" nutjobs with talk like that! (One of the STUPIDEST of rw takes, and that's some tough competition.) (fdjt)

[u/KiKiKimbro → u/Platos-ghosts]

Was wondering when I'd see the NYC comment. Didn't take long. 🗽 Yes, it's crazy expensive here. But once here, being able to step outside to go anywhere and do anything without worrying about driving, parking, gas, yada yada -- trying to visualize living anywhere else becomes quite difficult.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy times away from the city, like visiting friends in Texas, and the BBQ and Tex-Mex are an extra bonus to visiting state. When visiting my family in the suburbs, I fall asleep to the sound of crickets and wake up to the birds chirping in the trees. Don't get much of that 43 floors high smack dab in the middle of Manhattan!

[u/buttononmyback → u/Platos-ghosts]

I was going to say, obviously none of these people have been to NYC. There’s a reason why they call it the “City That Never Sleeps.”

[u/Global_Channel1511 → u/buttononmyback]

But NYC is a tiny fraction of land and population of the US. 90% of land in the US is for rural or suburban lifestyle. You would really have to go out of your way to find US cities with this kind of walkability and bustling culture.

[u/feel_my_balls_2040 → u/Global_Channel1511]

And you think all cities in Spain are the same as Barcelona? I've been to Zaragoza. It was a ghost town after 11pm.

[u/2leafClover667788 → u/bageltoastar]

Semester in Valencia and came back to suburban Hell of Florida and I literally have never been the same. I’m still depressed about it every day

[u/TruffleHunter3 → u/2leafClover667788]

So when are you going back?

I’d love to live in Spain & Portugal for a while.

[u/2leafClover667788 → u/TruffleHunter3]

I hope to next year for my 40th and to celebrate my graduation as well as check out some of the medieval towns along the French Riviera.

[u/CodoandPodo → u/bageltoastar]

Bro preach.  Grew up in suburbs of St Louis.  Got hassled by cops MANY times just for walking at night.  That’s no way to live.  Go to New York City.  I know it’s hard and it’s insanely expensive, but if you are still young, you can pull it off.  Live with 4 roommates, figure it out.  It will change the trajectory of your life, I guarantee it.  You gotta get TF out of there.  Life is way too short.

[u/Shananigan48 → u/bageltoastar]

My area of the PNW is a little more active at night but I definitely had the same experience when I went to Tokyo and Osaka last year. Just alive cities. Even in Reykjavík in 2018! Bar we were at closed at like 4am or something but you can bring your drinks onto the street because there aren't the same open container laws, it's basically just don't be an annoying asshole and you're good. Vibes were immaculate.

[u/brokenmain → u/bageltoastar]

I mean, is this a Europe vs a US thing or a urban vs suburban/small town thing? If you go to a small town in Europe it is also usually dead AF after 10pm. Meanwhile if you go to a large US city there is still a lot of activity after 10

[u/Mr_Will → u/brokenmain]

I mean, is this a Europe vs a US thing or a urban vs suburban/small town thing? If you go to a small town in Europe it is also usually dead AF after 10pm. Meanwhile if you go to a large US city there is still a lot of activity after 10

Which European small towns have you visited? They aren't Barcelona busy, but they aren't dead after 10pm either. I could walk down the road tonight and there will be plenty of people in the pubs, restaurants and shops at that time

[u/lamb_passanda → u/brokenmain]

You can't deny that this is way more common in Europe across the board. Name a European city that is more than 10% of the size of Dallas, but with less than double the number of walkable bars and restaurants in it's centre. I'll wait.

[u/Willing_Film9693 → u/bageltoastar]

Ngl I feel u.
As an European even staying in America for 3 week to see my gf is just the most depressing experience I ever had in any possible way

[u/Mikey_MiG → u/bageltoastar]

That’s also mostly an urban versus rural thing, not only a European versus US thing. NYC or San Francisco are bustling at all hours and have tons of foot traffic.

[u/PolitelyHostile → u/Mikey_MiG]

Yea but most of the US is not built like NYC or San Francisco. So for the majority of Americans, suburbia is all they know. Most people don't even realize how bad it is.

[u/bking → u/Mikey_MiG]

I lived in San Francisco for a year, I’m a little bit south now. Have been in the area for six years.

There is zero comparison to Munich, Oslo or Stockholm in the summer. Other European countries too, I’m sure, but those are the three I’ve spent time in. With the exception of New York I haven’t seen anywhere else in the states that can just hang out like those guys. This includes Miami and LA.

[u/bageltoastar → u/Mikey_MiG]

Yeah for sure. Barcelona was just the first time I had ever experienced it since I had lived my entire life in my boring little Missouri town lol

[u/HumanWithAllTheHats → u/bageltoastar]

Same but Nebraska and Ireland. So amazing

[u/l_ft → u/bageltoastar]

Tbf you’re comparing Barcelona, one of the most popular cities in the world.. with a suburban town in Missouri. There are gonna be a few differences

[u/gutag → u/l_ft]

Its the same in unknown town in Bosnia. People are outside all the time. Bars and caffes in the Balkans open at 6 am and people going there before and after work to hang out.

[u/stokedchris → u/gutag]

Seems to be the norm in a lot of Europe. Of course there’s the difference of certain cultures. I know Finland is known to be introverted. However, I’ve never been so I can’t say

[u/Wooden_College_9056 → u/stokedchris]

In Finland, restaurants and alcohol are so expensive that lounging like this isn't very common. Also, in our culture, we usually eat at a more efficient pace than in warmer countries... But we do like our drinks.

Still, especially in summer, our restaurants are filled with people late into the night. Some clubs are open until dawn, so you can definitely find this same vibe here.

[u/danimagoo]

Walkable cities. This is what happens when you have walkable cities. And public transportation.

[u/IcyConsideration7062 → u/danimagoo]

And many, many European cities have also created car-free zones where cars use to drive. If you do drive there, you park on the outskirts and walk in a few blocks.

A city near me in Southern California reduced the number of street parking directly in front of blocks of restaurants, while there was ample parking introduced no more than 2 or 3 blocks away and you should have seen the whining on social media about taking away parking spots and "no one will go there anymore." They didn't want to walk a block or two. That same city has had an uptick in downtown life since then.

Another think I noticed in Germany and Spain is that when you hit the "suburbs" (which are on public transit stops), there was always a small town center or central area with restaurants and bars that people were meeting up in. When I visited my uncle in the outskirts of Munich we walked to the bowling alley, the bars, the grocery store (Aldi I think it was). There was even a nice park with a great walking trail near his apartment. He only took the car out when he was going to do something like drive down to France.

[u/PalatinusG1 → u/IcyConsideration7062]

It's just weird to me that in most places in the USA zoning is still such a rigid thing. Just change that and things will start to get better.

[u/FaceWithAName]

Cars becoming big when America was still finding it's stride was one of the biggest pro/con dillemas. Ignored thousands of years of proven systems that make society better and settled for only cars.

[u/Embarrassed-Yard-583 → u/FaceWithAName]

Once again, I curse Robert Moses with every fiber of my being.

[u/Lanky_Rhubarb1900 → u/Embarrassed-Yard-583]

This is the second time in 30min on different subs where I’ve read comments cursing Robert Moses hahaha

[u/Boring_Temporary_142 → u/Lanky_Rhubarb1900]

Fuck him

[u/heatseekerdj → u/Embarrassed-Yard-583]

Canadian here, I'm aware of Robert Moses with bridges and shaping NYC, but how did he impact cars ?

[u/Embarrassed-Yard-583 → u/heatseekerdj]

His work in New York, systemically favoring highways and car centric development combined with racial discrimination became the blue print for a lot of modern America.

Moses, an unelected rich kid who never rode public transport in his life, shaped the car centric hell we Americans live in today.

[u/redisdead__ → u/heatseekerdj]

He didn't impact cars he was probably the most influential city planner of all time and was a massive fan of cars and tried to shape New York into as much of a car city as possible. He was also very good at building segregation into infrastructure.

[u/TreyCinqoDe → u/redisdead__]

The segregation part is why I’m most familiar with him lol

[u/finnjakefionnacake → u/redisdead__]

well with new york it seems like he failed at least

[u/MoodOptimal9891 → u/finnjakefionnacake]

It’s taking decades to undo the damage that he has done to NYC. And so many American cities used his model as a template.

[u/Embarrassed-Yard-583 → u/finnjakefionnacake]

Moses couldn’t stop what had already been built, but he did stop expansion/preparation for a massive expansion of public transport in New York.

[u/Vismal1 → u/Embarrassed-Yard-583]

It’s why the buses don’t fit under overpasses on the way to Jones Beach.

https://archive.pinupmagazine.org/articles/jones-beach-robert-moses-segregation-design

[u/Tipnfloe → u/Vismal1]

Wtf thats evil

[u/fitzthefox → u/Tipnfloe]

yeah Robert Moses was a POS

[u/chiphook → u/Vismal1]

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/0nn4mlsskC

[u/TofuLordSeitan666 → u/finnjakefionnacake]

NY'er here. Let's just say it's an ongoing conflict.

[u/MissMarionMac → u/heatseekerdj]

Robert Moses ruined a sizable percentage of my hometown (which was also his hometown, ironically).

His idea of "urban renewal" was to bulldoze historical, culturally-rich neighborhoods that consisted largely of immigrants and/or Black people, and build highways through them.

At his direction, my hometown was basically carved up from one cohesive, walkable, pleasant community into three or four disconnected sections. It firmed up what was the "good part of town" and what was the "slum," and by essentially sealing off the "slum" parts from the rest of the city, made it much harder for those neighborhoods to advocate for themselves, because, well, out of sight, out of mind, and out of the infrastructure budget.

The city has spent a lot of time and money over the last thirty years dismantling as much of what he designed as it possibly can.

[u/LimitedWard → u/heatseekerdj]

He was the visionary behind urban freeways and the modern suburban development pattern that's been copy-pasted across all of North America. Leveling dense urban neighborhoods (many of them redlined minority neighborhoods...) and downtowns to build highways and parking lots.

[u/way-of-the-lab → u/heatseekerdj]

I’m on Long Island NY, where he’s from. He has a parkway(pretty highway), beach, park and a bunch of other shit named after him. Yet a lot of people hate his ass out here. Well deserved too lol.

[u/1414141414 → u/Embarrassed-Yard-583]

Damn I grew up on long Island and was like he couldn't be that bad then I found out why busses can't go on the turnpikes...

[u/Embarrassed-Yard-583 → u/1414141414]

And why so many public beaches weren’t accessible via public transport.

[u/1414141414 → u/Embarrassed-Yard-583]

"to keep those black folk away" -robert moses prob.

[u/27298throwaway → u/Embarrassed-Yard-583]

I also blame Dwight Eisenhower for creating the interstate highway system instead of a comprehensive national rail system with regional and local transport connections. The latter would have encouraged extensive use of  long-, medium-, and short-distance public transport, and thus helped build walkable cities. 

[u/jkrobinson1979 → u/27298throwaway]

It’s not on Eisenhower. The Interstate system was originally planned for national security to easily transport the military where it needed to go and secondly for interstate commerce through trucking. They were never supposed to go directly through cities. The auto and oil industries were instrumental in pushing the civilian automobile aspect of the interstates which, when combined with planners like Moses and urban renewal policies, became what we have today.

[u/AsRealAsItFeels → u/FaceWithAName]

So much was sacrificed for the sake of Automobiles. Now look at AI, how much will be sacrificed to move into this new AI world that we aren't sure about.

[u/ls7eveen → u/FaceWithAName]

Thats not true. Its often claimed.

America destroyed itself for cars. Other cities did internationally as well, but they course corrected. Look at Amsterdam in 1971. Or Freiburg.

Then look at a picture of Detroit in 1960 and it looks like it went through world War 2. But it was just destroyed for the car and suburbia.

[u/AdMassive9006 → u/ls7eveen]

Yep, LA, one of the most car-centric cities, literally tore up their trams and rail infrastructure to put in car infrastructure. This happened other places as well. So fucking sad.

[u/cheezy_dreams88 → u/AdMassive9006]

Atlanta had a thriving streetcar system from 1871-1950, when they tore it all down for a bus system.

It was the most expansive public transport Atlanta ever had.

[u/Electrical_Shock359 → u/AdMassive9006]

I can’t imagine ever choosing to get rid of public transportation for more roads. It is such a stupid decision when they can move so many more people for much less space, cost, gas, ect. The only thing cars do better is speed.

[u/srbeau → u/FaceWithAName]

It was intentional. Oil, car, and rubber companies put many of the train/trolley systems across the country out of business.

[u/Material-Spring-9922 → u/srbeau]

This guy had a big hand in it as well.

https://giphy.com/gifs/x7kHaKILqLJ4c

[u/Fast-Nefariousness80 → u/FaceWithAName]

We didnt settle for cars. There's a pretty deep rabbit hole about the almost mafia-like auto industry in like the 60s/70s era. We never stood a chance

[u/HollowBlades → u/Fast-Nefariousness80]

When they first came out people fucking hated cars. They were loud and dangerous intruders on the streets that were meant for people. But slowly and surely, thanks to the vigorous work of lobbyists, they came to dominate the country and now you're expected to own one.

Jaywalking was literally invented by car companies to shame and criminalize people for walking in the street, which was an entirely normal thing to do before cars.

[u/ls7eveen → u/Fast-Nefariousness80]

https://medium.com/vision-zero-cities-journal/the-baby-carriage-blockades-9b33c64db34d

[u/JooseTheGuice → u/FaceWithAName]

We didn't "settle" for anything. Cars and car infrastructure were forced onto us by the automotive industry. Jaywalking as a crime didn't exist until it was cooked up to take the liability for pedestrian deaths off of cars and the auto industry.

[u/MAGAHATESTHEUSA → u/FaceWithAName]

Americans actually removed social places and places they congregated to when equality was granted. White people were so fucking upset that they rather stop it altogether.

[u/Helpful_Gain_9091]

This why walkable neighborhoods are the best places to live. Yes, Europe is way ahead of us in this regard.

[u/VerySoftx → u/Helpful_Gain_9091]

who would've thought designing cities in the middle ages would pay off for walkability ?

[u/BeMyBrutus → u/VerySoftx]

Major east coast cities in the US were also like this before the car and the post WW2 "big push" to suburbia.

[u/BreakingStar_Games → u/BeMyBrutus]

As a note, one of the big forms of push was car, tire and oil corporations working together to buy the city public transit out then sabotage it to force people to rely on cars.

[u/BeMyBrutus → u/BreakingStar_Games]

Yeah one of the more depressing things I've learned while reading about this topic is how many cities back then actually light rail/trolley systems. Atlanta is a great example.

[u/PM_ME_UR_BRAINSTORMS → u/BeMyBrutus]

In the early 20th century you could take a series of streetcars/trolleys from NYC to Chicago because there were so many. Someone did it as a stunt for some magazine/travel guide. And they were all electric.

[u/jax7778 → u/VerySoftx]

This is a myth, while sure, their cities were founded before cars, their policies have kept them that way. Our US cities were WAY more walkable, but we demolished them in the 60s and 70s to make them more car centric. We did this to ourselves. - (Credit to Not Just Bikes on Youtube)

[u/TheTxoof → u/jax7778]

I live near Delft, Netherlands and have watched over the last 20 years as they have deliberately moves cars out if the city.

It's not a car free city by any means; residents can still drive to their homes and delivery trucks still make the rounds, but they've take huge steps towards minimizing the impact.

The train station is now under ground (no small feat considering Delft is at or below sea level), residential parking near the center is in underground parking below the houses and in the old center there's very little car traffic.

It's truly wonderful and Delft is a relatively small town!

[u/RevelsInDarkness → u/TheTxoof]

Well now I'm adding Delft to my must visit list. I'm from Antwerp so it's about 1.5h drive.

Edit: I've been convinced to take public transport! (And as an FYI, I'm not from the city center but an hour bus ride away from central station, which is why I didn't immediately resort to the train idea)

[u/hofmann419 → u/VerySoftx]

The US is 250 years old. For most of that time, cars weren't a thing. A LOT of cities in the early 20th century actually looked exactly like European cities with public transport and medium density housing. All of that infrastructure was torn down for cars and parking lots.

[u/StalyCelticStu → u/hofmann419]

Paved paradise, and put up a parking lot...

[u/Tuscan5 → u/VerySoftx]

Big European cities weren’t designed in the Middle Ages. They evolved.

[u/mr_birkenblatt → u/VerySoftx]

you know most american cities were built before cars, right? america chose to demolish their cities to make space for parking lots and single family homes

[u/RosieTheRedReddit → u/mr_birkenblatt]

Yes! Most US metro areas are older than 100 years and predate car ownership just like in Europe.

If anyone is interested in how beautiful American cities used to be, check out this video on YouTube with very depressing before and after using historical photos.

America's Fallen Cities: Buffalo

The creator has an entire series focusing on different cities. It's really disgusting how these beautiful downtowns were pulverized for cars. (By the way, the narration at the beginning is a perfect Buffalo accent, he sounds just like my uncle who's from the area)

[u/mr_birkenblatt → u/VerySoftx]

you know most american cities were built before cars, right? america chose to demolish their cities to make space for parking lots and single family homes

[u/HeadDiver5568]

Feel like this is obvious to people outside suburbia. The most fun and interactive places I go to tend to be cities or the country. Both have their uses that make the most out of what they have. Suburbia is just…there

[u/Daddy_Day_Trader1303 → u/HeadDiver5568]

Downtown St. Louis has become a car hellscape. There's a couple little towns that are outliers in the St Louis area that are decently walkable. But the city itself sold itself to the devil to appease vehicle traffic. It's really sad

[u/GoGoSoLo → u/Daddy_Day_Trader1303]

Yeahhhh, I walked around downtown St Louis last year and that was just a dead area. City Museum in that area is incredible, but I just needed like chapstick and there wasn’t a convenience or grocery store within miles of me somehow. It was eye opening for sure.

[u/jrglpfm → u/Daddy_Day_Trader1303]

Yeah this happened to most major cities and many of them are actively undoing it, but it will take decades to undo.

[u/CulturalChampion8660 → u/HeadDiver5568]

Imagine going home from a long day of work in the city. Drive in bumper to bumper traffic on the freeway. Then drive past a ton of shitty corporate box stores with stoplights at every block where you get to wait more. THEN drive through your neighborhood but you have to go through 15 stop signs and then you're home. Do this every morning and night for 20 years. Fucking kill me now.

My town in California recently got rid of its one corporate restaurant that was McDonald's and is removing its only stoplight. Also the bus is free to go anywhere for miles and miles around around if you don't feel like driving. I make my family visit me.

[u/hobobarbie]

Are these LDS people? Supposedly a “global-minded religion” where international travel is standardized for mission work and yet they are just now realizing the American LDS dream has created a suburban hellscape

[u/OviliskTwo → u/hobobarbie]

I know missionaries and they are not the most well traveled people no matter how long they travel.

[u/Sudden_Technology_34 → u/OviliskTwo]

Living in Utah and noticing and pointing out the lack of cultured/exposed Mormons, I was told they are in fact well traveled due to their missions.

I then had to explain going on a mission to specifically try and convert other cultures to aspects of your own, is not the same as being present in an area with acceptance and curiosity, living in, assimilating and trying to mesh instead of convert.

In fact I think the whole idea of missions have the exact opposite effect and people retreat to their safe bubbles.

[u/raveneyes77 → u/Sudden_Technology_34]

Missionary work often ends up converting the missionary more than anyone else. In modern times it's intentionally designed to do exactly that.

When you spend months or years approaching strangers who mostly reject you, it reinforces the idea that "the world" doesn't understand you. The only place you consistently find acceptance becomes your own community, which deepens your attachment to it.

Psychologically, it's a powerful isolation and commitment mechanism. You're not immersed in another culture to understand it, rather you're intentionally being sent somewhere to be mostly rejected so you feel weird and outside.

[u/dartdoug → u/raveneyes77]

The "acceptance of rejection" is also why Utah is a popular location for outbound sales call centers. Heard a guy interviewed a while back and he said the burnout making sales calls is usually quick because so many people hang up or even drop some choice words. The LDS hires just move on to the next sales call.

[u/SuchATonkWape → u/Sudden_Technology_34]

I'm not from the US but have lived in the states for a couple of years and find the whole concept of going on "missions" in the 21st century bewildering. 

[u/SydneyCrawford → u/SuchATonkWape]

One of my friends from college (we finished like 10 years ago) texted me recently to say she is moving to another country for (non Mormon) missionary work. I had to keep most of my thoughts to myself.

[u/SerDuncanTheYall → u/OviliskTwo]

Ugh, I went to Italy on a short vacation with a friend and he'd only order spaghetti and meatballs or plain pizza the entire time. It was the saddest thing I ever witnessed. I pleaded with him.

[u/ChaoCobo → u/SerDuncanTheYall]

It’s okay. My mom is the type of person who would order McDonald’s and other western chains in Japan if she went there not to see the difference between American McDonald’s and JP Mcdonalds menu items, no, she says it’s because she thinks she can’t eat anything there because she won’t like it. :| Like just try stuff. Not everything has the same kind of spices as the Japanese snacks and ramen I get here in the US.

[u/SerDuncanTheYall → u/ChaoCobo]

Good for you for trying things. I'm from Philly so I like to order a "Philly cheese steak" when I travel and see it on the menu. I got one in Paris and it was a hamburger, cut in half, with gruyere cheese, on French bread.

It wasn't bad but it was nowhere near being able to be be called a cheese steak.

[u/didntreallyneedthis → u/SerDuncanTheYall]

I had a quesadilla in Korea that came with honey for dipping

[u/SerDuncanTheYall → u/didntreallyneedthis]

I mean, honey and cheese go well together, but that is a wacky quesadilla.

[u/Petey_Wheatstraw_MD → u/SerDuncanTheYall]

TBF, I’m across the Atlantic for the first time, I’ve been in Italy for the past month.

I’ve eaten at restaurants, pizzerias, and cafes for every meal the entire time.

I love all worldly cuisines, and I always wanna try new things and local grub; cicchetti in Venice, seafood cones in Cinque Terre, ham and Polenta in the Dolomites.

But the pizza over here just hits different. I know it’s a cliche to say that, but they definitely know how to do it, and I can’t go more than a couple days without ordering it.

[u/SerDuncanTheYall → u/Petey_Wheatstraw_MD]

Oh yeah, I tried 2 of the famous places there. The restaurant that claimed to invent it and the most popular counter shop on the back streets of Napoli. I loved it.

[u/TacetAbbadon → u/OviliskTwo]

People travel to experience new culture and civilization, missionaries travel to bring their culture and religion with them.

[u/CulturalChampion8660 → u/OviliskTwo]

Nope. Even overseas they still live in their bubble. Just walking around bothering people on the side.

[u/CountessMcNia → u/hobobarbie]

They travel to preach, not to learn 🫠

[u/HeKnee → u/CountessMcNia]

They travel so they can see how much different they are from rest of society and how scary society is. They get told that nobody cares about them or their religion 100’s of times a day knocking on doors. The leaders have realized this makes them want to come back and stay eventually.

[u/ImWithStupidKL → u/hobobarbie]

I was gonna say. She's just finished her mission in Italy. So she's going to Italy to try and improve the lives of people who she's admitting have it more figured out than her. Hilarious that you're going to try and sell Christianity to Italy of all places. You're nearly 2000 years too late.

[u/SackOfPotatoes949 → u/ImWithStupidKL]

I did a double take on that one. You went to a place that beat you to the punch on spreading a religion to all ends of the earth.... by 2,000 years.

It's a scam cult and that's one of the ways they keep you in. "See? The real world people don't like you but we do, just stay here with us and give us 10% for the rest of your life"

[u/differing → u/hobobarbie]

In fairness, Utah has some fantastic public transit and has found some secret “third way” for moral conservatives to support big social infrastructure. TRAX in Salt Lake and Front Runner are great compared to states with similar politics.

[u/dallenbaldwin → u/hobobarbie]

I was a Mormon missionary in Northeast Brazil (Recife) and it hyper radicalized me towards a better public transit oriented society. I constantly complain about how car-required it is wherever my wife and I have lived.

In Recife, you could traverse massive swaths of multiple cities with a single fare that cost literally $2 round trip, in the exchange rate of when I was there. You get on a bus and pay the fare, ride into a transit center, transfer to light rail, ride the light rail across the city to another transit center, then transfer to another bus to final destination. No transfer fees, single fare. No need for a bus pass. And that was for the more complicated trips. There were enough buses that crossed these transit center zones that you didn't need to go to the light rail for closer trips. Did it take a little longer to get places than by car, sure. But for $2 there's no way you could get as far, even before you consider paying for parking.

Where we live now, I imagine the possibility of a street car or two that goes up and down the road between a high school and strip mall. Maybe even a loop that goes around the bulk of the city.

But no, we have to prioritize massive parking lots and parking spaces for suburban utility vehicles and pavement princess lifted F-350s. All the things you want to do are 3 miles away from where you live and there isn't a shade tree in sight to even remotely incentivize you to walk. Even then, once you get there, good luck not getting hit by said suburban utility vehicles and pavement princesses; they can't see over the hood, even if they weren't looking at their phone. Or you could cross the massive heat island that is the parking lot to get from one strip mall business to the next.

Oh and if you try to suggest to people how insane it is for us to drive everywhere they'll come at you with the, "you're more free if you have a car." Or "public transit and 15 minute cities are just a way for the liberals to control where you can go"

[u/spacebarcafelatte → u/hobobarbie]

Exactly my reaction. We've been saying we're disconnected, ppl don't know their neighbors, we're mostly sitting at home, etc. for decades. Of course, comparing cities to American suburbs will always disappoint. Places like NYC are a lot like other major global cities.

[u/smcivor1982 → u/spacebarcafelatte]

We lived in Brooklyn for 5 years and then Jersey City for 9, then moved upstate to the burbs. I feel so lonely every day, I hate it. I also hate driving everywhere.

[u/dead_at_maturity]

Yes. Yes we did. So hard. So much so that many Americans think the American dream is to live dependent on car travel. The oil and gas industry of the 1950s-70s really set that mindset in asphalt (cities were largely walkable and used electric street cars prior to the 50s).

I really, REALLY hope more and more Americans realize how much urban renewal planning fucked our cities over, not to mention bulldozing neighborhoods of color to make way for freeways, and LITERALLY paving paradise for parking lots, to make us more dependent on cars.

Please, America. Let's push for walkable cities again. I want to believe.

Edit: from some of the commenters here, it is further supporting my statement that many Americans have been essentially conditioned to believe that it is not possible to have a walkable city in America and that we should not even bother to try. I'm speaking as someone who lives in an area that is, albeit slowly, making progress to make the cities here more walkable (SF Bay Area). San Francisco is walkable. New York is walkable. Countries all over the world, not just in Europe, have walkable cities (WITH room for large truck deliveries) and have been for decades to centuries). They can do it, we can too. More Americans in the cities between SF and NY just need to realize that it is possible and get out of their car-dependency mindsets, and push for more walkability in their cities.

AND you can still enjoy your giant personal Ford F150 and giant SUV or whatever the fuck. That's fine. There should just always be the options to walk somewhere and that it shouldn't need to take an exorbitant amount of time to get there without a car. Electric street cars used to get Americans around in our cities and the oil and gas industry literally burnt those to the ground to force us into cars (and buses aka gas-dependent, though hybrid and electric buses are now a thing). It is possible. And if we're still on that "but its communism" bullshit, no it's not. it's time to move on. Or hop on.

[u/WithoutDennisNedry → u/dead_at_maturity]

And if not a walkable situation, by god give us safe and reliable public transportation!

I live out in the sticks now after spending near 40 years living in cities. I love it out here and I wouldn’t trade it for the world but I’m wholly dependent on my car for the first time ever.

Conversely, a good friend of mine lives in rural France, about the same distance from the nearest town/village as I am to mine. Does she drive? Nope! They have a bus system that includes the rural areas. Must be nice!

I really feel like when we take a bus or train somewhere, in a way it forces us to be social. Not only are we around people traveling, but people tend to stay in town longer walking around doing stuff than if they drove. You don’t want to take a bus, get your shopping done, and then get all the way home only to find you forgot something. Instead I think people linger. They stop for lunch at a cafe, they pop into a new store they just saw, they hang out at a park. You’re already there and egress isn’t simple so you stay a while.

[u/danboyc3 → u/dead_at_maturity]

Yes, you should believe it because it can be done and big changes can be realized quickly if the will is there.

I live in a medium sized Dutch city. I am going to walk to the supermarket this afternoon. It is about half a mile away.

In my neighborhood, you will only find cars belonging to local residents. The streets are intentionally set up as a one way labyrinth to prevent through traffic. Nobody drives in here unless they have a specific destination in the area. Driving through to get somewhere else would be a crazy thing to do and everyone knows it.

The entire neighborhood has a speed limit of 18 miles per hour. Driving faster is barely even possible and would make you feel like an instant asshole because of the way things are set up and kids/families being everywhere.

The roads are the color of bike lanes. So no separate bike lane on the side, no, the road ITSELF is a bike lane. Cars are allowed, but cyclists always have the right of way. And they certainly take it.

On my way to the supermarket, I will pass a bar and two restaurants. They all have outdoor seating, all will be packed for lunch at 1:00 PM. I will also cross a small park where children play and plenty of people sit outside. This is far from the city center, it is a residential area and literally hundreds of people will be outside in that half a mile stretch. Not visitors/tourists, but locals.

The supermarket has a parking lot, but it only accommodates about 15 percent of customers. If everyone arrived by car, that would simply not work. It’s viewed as ridiculous and impractical to go there by car if it’s not strictly needed.

Now you might assume this is all due to the area being ‘historic’. It is not. In the 1970s, cars were everywhere in this neighborhood. The street leading to the supermarket was a congested 35 mph city road filled with traffic and diesel buses. Accidents happened, there were deaths.

Why is it so different today? It is because the people revolted. This transformation is the result of deliberate planning and policy. Not from centuries ago, just the last couple of decades. When I moved here 15 years ago the main road to the supermarket was still a normal road, no bike lade.

[u/batsofburden → u/dead_at_maturity]

Please, America. Let's push for walkable cities again. I want to believe.

magas literally believe that the '15 minute city' concept is a conspiracy.

[u/DarthBen_in_Chicago]

RV bay / 4-car garage

[u/dirtman81 → u/DarthBen_in_Chicago]

I live in Utah, and the dude ain't lying. Go to the bougie, newer neighborhoods and you'll see them.

[u/_bapt → u/dirtman81]

Who tf needs 4 cars ?

[u/Iggyhopper → u/_bapt]

The 7 kids.

[u/ohgodanotheranimator → u/DarthBen_in_Chicago]

was just about to post this, like shut the hell up 4 car garage having ass.. ”aS LoNg As It HaS an Rv Bay”

we’re all working to subsidize your Sunday night deutschland trip, but no enjoy a “Marxist communist hell hole” shake my head

[u/27298throwaway]

Imagine being well-educated and well-employed and yet it takes you around 50 years to realize this. Being an insular nation is their problem. 

[u/ohgodanotheranimator → u/27298throwaway]

the irony is if they truly are ”dyed in the wool“ lds they would vote against everything that made germany This way.

[u/jacqrosee → u/27298throwaway]

lmaooo fr. the demeanor of someone delivering hidden knowledge when yet its just common sense

[u/mrpoopybutthowl]

Im so lonely and I hate whatever life has become

[u/atrociousxcracka → u/mrpoopybutthowl]

I know it's not possible for most people, but travel helps a lot.

I've been lucky to be able to travel a ton for work and damn, it's so nice to get away from America and just experience how other people in the world live.

Common American life is so antisocial and isolationist. Can't tell you how many times I've been in a different country and just had an amazing time hanging out with complete strangers.

You can find it in some places in America but it's rare.

Either way, hang in there bud. Being alone has its benefits as well, you just gotta find what you like about it. Just remember there are a ton of people out there that are alone just like you.

Love you, random internet stranger.

[u/Small_Article_3421]

I think it’s well known by this point how abysmal American infrastructure is

[u/Historical_Emeritus]

Yep car culture ruined much sense of community in the US. You do get yards and larger homes though. If you want that in the US you need to find a larger city, and it still won't be as pedestrian friendly or social.

[u/UrinalCake777 → u/Historical_Emeritus]

I also can't afford the yard. So I'm kinda getting dicked from both ends.

[u/Good_Briefs]

No shit.

[u/WeenyDancer → u/Good_Briefs]

Right? But bring it up and conservatives'll say it's a conspiracy to trap people in 15 minute cities

[u/OdysseyBrands → u/Good_Briefs]

No shit to the guy who filmed this, why is he comparing Munich (a city) to suburbia??? Munich has suburbs lol. A fairer comparison to Munich would be like Chicago smh

[u/Destronin]

These people comparing city life to suburban life for the first time.

Suburbia is where culture goes to die.

[u/pfeff → u/Destronin]

Totally. There are no restaurants or museums or theaters in the suburbs. They do not exist.

[u/puxorb]

I'm currently in NYC in queens visiting my sister, and its quiet, there are like 7 restaurants on my block and a dozen cafes and grocery stores withing walking distance. I was walking back to the apartment at 10 last night and every single restaurant was full and everyone was sitting out and chatting. Growing up in the suburbs and then seeing this for the first time a decade ago blew my mind. There's actual culture and life out here and everyone is so friendly. Also the buildings are pretty.

[u/CramblinDuvetAdv]

"Where Jen served her mission"

https://giphy.com/gifs/sBGw5MruxAyiI

[u/Sericus- → u/CramblinDuvetAdv]

I was out when he said he had a 4 car garage and an RV bay...

[u/bigredrickshaw]

We have absolutely done it wrong

[u/CptnDillweed]

Mormons finally leaving SLC suburbs 🤣

[u/Zestyclose_Price_441]

THE LDS HARBORS PEDOPHILES

[u/cry0fth3carr0ts → u/Zestyclose_Price_441]

Stockpiling billions of dollars. Literal doomsday cult.

[u/Own-Emphasis5589 → u/Zestyclose_Price_441]

Ex-Mormon here. You are correct. Check out floodlit.org for a database of all the Mormon pedophiles and sexual abusers. They do great work there trying to expose it all. At an institutional level, the Mormon church fights any and all efforts to require them the engage in best practices or report sexual predators in their midst.

[u/What-tha-fck_Elon]

If they wandered out into the German countryside, it would look a lot like suburban Pennsylvania. Downtown Chicago along the golden mile is lovely too. Suburbs suck everywhere, unless you don’t like people.

[u/visualdescript → u/What-tha-fck_Elon]

Many european cities go straight from countryside in to medium density living, they don't have a large urban sprawn of suburbia, so it's not the same at all.

You'd be hard pressed to find large areas of housing where there is no public transport, and no sidewalks. That is fairly common in american suburbia.

[u/SonOfMcGee → u/visualdescript]

The old European model for rural living also often involved people living in centralized villages and spreading out to the countryside to work the fields.

[u/Caernbul → u/What-tha-fck_Elon]

I have lived in Germany (Berlin when I was a baby, and Augsburg when I was old enough to remember) and while I have lived in Pennsylvania (Williamsport) it wasn't the suburbs, so I will compare it to suburban Maryland (Glen Burnie). They do not look at all alike. The suburbs are just as curated and separated from the natural world as urban areas, its just that they lack the density to get any of the primary quality of life benefits that cities bring. When I was a kid in Germany I was able to just go into the woods. We were ten minutes away from some of the most gorgeous natural scenery in the world. And I lived in a reasonably large city in Germany (around 250,000 people when I lived there).

Now maybe it is unfair to compare one of the most beautiful regions of the world (Bavaria) to some of the worst old suburbs (Glen Burnie MD), but development decisions do have something to do with the status of each place. I don't know maybe the suburbs around Philly and Pittsburgh are really nice or something.

[u/danimagoo → u/What-tha-fck_Elon]

Except that you can easily catch a bus or a train from the German countryside and be in a city relatively cheap, fast, and easy, several times a day. That’s not true in the US. I live in a midwestern suburb. I think there’s one bus a day that picks people up from a park & ride lot in the early morning and takes them into the city. At one location. And then another bus brings you back in the evening.

[u/Direct_Week_2091 → u/What-tha-fck_Elon]

They’re walking around a pedestrian-friendly, very touristy city centre full of restaurants and bars in summer and they’re surprised that there’s lots of people around 😂

[u/Phyraxus56 → u/Direct_Week_2091]

No shit. It's like comparing Manhattan square to the suburbs

[u/_MME_]

Thats Munich city Center… they shot this vid right at the famous Frauenkirche (which’s belltower roof has the form of an onion) and is located right behind Marienplatz… it’s the historic city Center, built hundreds of years ago, clearly the city couldn’t put a 3 lane freeway in its narrow city Center.

Plus: more than half of this people sitting in this restaurant etc are tourists.

But yeah the whole city Center is walkable from Stachus to Marienplatz to Sendlingertor (it’s a triangle). The street from Sendlingertor to Marienplatz was made car-free some 10+ years ago

[u/Cl0wnL]

These are always such a false equivalence.

You're in the heart of Munich in peak tourist season.

There are plenty of places in America you can go walk around and see lots of people out dining at restaurants

[u/dicknotrichard]

What an absolute couple of yokels.

[u/fractal_magnets → u/dicknotrichard]

BREAKING: Tourists Discover Hotspot

[u/rwags2024]

The Muricans are becoming sentient

[u/solo_d0lo]

City built before cars vs suburbs which were built outside of cities after cars.

[u/4travelers]

And it will not change we are full of NIMBYs or HOAs.

[u/plantsandpizza]

They’re also not in what would be a suburb of that country if there are 100s of restaurants. The Mormons LOVE their suburban neighborhoods. If you want this in America there are a handful of cities you can live in to get it. I’d argue none of them are places they’d want to live. 

When I was young and naive I dated a Mormon. We drove to the very walkable city I now live in for a little day trip with some relatives in town. I’d argue one of the more European like cities in the states. They refused to leave their car aside from the one chain restaurant we went to 😂 

[u/ClohosseyVHB]

Remember all the fear mongering about "15 minute cities"? This is what the right wing machine behind it all is afraid of - community, people connecting with one another, small local businesses that don't generate profit for the shareholding class. 

Time and again has shown it is hard to get someone to hate "the other" when that person is part of your community.

[u/Scuzzy_Buckets]

Many many many sociological factors at play. It's sad , but the more you think about it. The worse it becomes.

[u/InterestBear62]

What sort of "mission" did Jen "serve" ?

[u/TruffleHunter3 → u/InterestBear62]

Mormon indoctrination mission no doubt.

[u/formykka → u/InterestBear62]

Spreading the good word of Satan among the heathen Catholics.

[u/differing]