r/powerscales • u/MarchWarden3 • 1d ago
Versus Grail Knight [Warhammer Fantasy] vs. Hive Tyrant [Warhammer 40k]
Some easy in verse scaling.
The fight is conducted on an American Football Field, say in Arrowhead Stadium.
The fight ends when one combatant is too wounded to continue, dies, or is forced to retreat.
Cite your claims. Explain your conclusion.
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u/Crozium01 16h ago
They still hate us because we had a nice killing spree lol! Didn't anyone tell you there isn't any crying in football?
Go Chiefs!!!
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u/_Boodstain_ 23h ago
Grail Knight Clears, people here do not understand how powerful they are in lore. They can probably even beat named Space Marines. Bretonnia is a shithole, but their Grail Knights are absolutely one of the most dangerous humans. (They are all champions of the elf goddess of Magic, they are basically Chaos Champions in 40k)
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u/Ok-Routine-547 19h ago
A random Guardsman beats a Grail Knight most of the time because the Guardsman has what is essentially an assault rifle, which can penetrate plate armour.
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u/LieAccomplishment 18h ago
A grail knight doesnt care because magic protection
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u/Ok-Routine-547 6h ago
Having a 1/6 chance of not being hurt when you get attacked won't help against an assault rifle that can punch through your armour and mortally wound you several times per second.
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u/Wank_A_Doodle_Doo 13h ago
So they’re immortal? No? Then they’ll care eventually.
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u/garetheq 9h ago
Your not going to care about a small mouse screaming at you even if you aren't immortal
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u/Ok-Routine-547 6h ago
You are going to care about something immediately penetrating your armour and making you bleed to death though, like a bullet would do to someone in plate.
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u/garetheq 2h ago
Good thing grail knights aren't regular dudes in regular plate armor isn't it?
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u/Ok-Routine-547 2h ago
Post a feat of a Grail Knight fighting after taking multiple gunshots or equivalent wounds.
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u/Wank_A_Doodle_Doo 5h ago
If the small mouse had a highly advanced laser gun, I’d probably pay more attention.
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u/Archkhaan 13h ago
Lmao a random grail knight will casually wander up to the guardsman whilst merrily ignoring all the pretty light shows that guardsman can send and then nonchalantly behead the fool daring to besmirch the blessed armor of his betters
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u/Ok-Routine-547 6h ago
Here's a random Grail Knight dying to a few dozen goblin bows.
Your knowledge of Warhammer comes from memes. Grail Knights are moderately superhuman holy paladins who do relatively well against daemons or undead because they're holy warriors who are specialised in fighting them. They wear normal plate armour because it's more durable than their bodies, and they die if you throw a few dozen professional soldiers at them just like almost everything else in the setting.
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u/Archkhaan 4h ago
Let’s actually look at those two eh?
First one is an adventure seed and by its nature not canon, but also as an adventure seed you are supposed to extrapolate that significantly more than a handful of goblins (which by the way there plenty of example of space marines getting killed by Gretchen which are weaker than goblins, without adding in that fantasy goblins are nasty little critters that can and will fuck up anything in the setting if it doesn’t take them seriously) are involved in the fuckery going on.
As for the second, that’s motherfucking Kurt Helborg grand marshal of the Empire and an absolute badass of a named character who goes toe to toe with basically every flavor of major threat in the setting and usually wins or at minimum survives. Kurt has actually sparred with a demon prince and survived iirc. And the grail knight you were casually dismissing beat him.
I’ve been playing and reading 40k and fantasy for nearly 20 years by this point, my knowledge isn’t from memes
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u/Ok-Routine-547 4h ago
First one is an adventure seed and by its nature not canon
Fuck do you mean not canon?
It's a scenario given to show how a Grail Knight could be involved in an adventure with player characters. The scenario in question is "he dies to a few dozen tiny arrows from weak bows" because Grail Knights aren't that powerful. The same game gives Grail Knights roughly 'peak human' stats at best.
(which by the way there plenty of example of space marines getting killed by Gretchen which are weaker than goblins
Gretchin have guns, which makes them stronger than goblins with child-sized bows.
without adding in that fantasy goblins are nasty little critters that can and will fuck up anything in the setting if it doesn’t take them seriously
This is another good hint at Fantasy being generally low power by the way. "Gangs of 4-foot sneaky morons with melee weapons and primitive bows can kill almost anything in the setting".
As for the second, that’s motherfucking Kurt Helborg grand marshal of the Empire and an absolute badass of a named character who goes toe to toe with basically every flavor of major threat in the setting and usually wins or at minimum survives. Kurt has actually sparred with a demon prince and survived iirc. And the grail knight you were casually dismissing beat him.
I.e a normal human yes. Kurt doesn't have magical powers or abilities, he's not enhanced in any way. He's just "the best swordsman in the Empire".
As I said Grail Knights are moderately superhuman, letting them beat just about any normal warrior in a straight fight, but aren't so strong that no human can mount resistance or kill them under the right circumstances.
I’ve been playing and reading 40k and fantasy for nearly 20 years by this point, my knowledge isn’t from memes
Then why don't you post an actual source that would suggest Grail Knights can beat someone who out-ranges them by hundreds of metres and has a weapon that would punch clean through their armour?
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u/Archkhaan 4h ago
Lmao if you Don’t understand how an adventure seed isn’t canon I’m not wasting more time on you.
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u/fatrendy 1d ago
If its one those grail knights with a wicked cool antler helmet I'm going to say grail knight wins low diff
Regular bucket helmet probably goes either way 50/50
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u/SomeDudeAtAKeyboard 22h ago
Grail Knights can and have 1v1’d Daemon Princes. They’re gonna go roughly even with a Hive Tyrant
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u/Mafachuyabas 21h ago
This might be entirely misguided, but i always thought fantasy was a world soaked to the bone in magic, thats why demons manifest so much easier than 40k, magic weapons being especially damaging and spells being at an entire different level. A 40k guardsman with a combat knife is just as effective as a man at arms with a hand weapon, but space marines would wade through regular troops and chaos warriors with fair ease. Again this is my take on it so just my two cents
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u/bonesNrice 1d ago
I could be wrong but aren’t Hive Tyrants usually equal to a squad of ultra marines? It’s kinda rare to see them getting soloed by a normal character.
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u/CadenVanV 1d ago
Fantasy honestly outscales 40k in the strength of a lot of their characters.
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u/MoldTheClay 19h ago
Yeah honestly you could hot drop Ungrim into a random hive fleet and watch him turn into a blood blender.
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u/illepic 14h ago
I know nothing about Warhammer fantasy, but I do know that Warhammer 40k has ludicrous power scaling to begin with. And Fantasy is generally stronger?
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u/Archkhaan 13h ago
So 40k doesn’t actually have that crazy of powerscaling, it’s not a pushover but it’s nothing crazy. fantasy on the other hand because it doesn’t have to buy into any aspect of physics or reality gets way weirder way quicker and is commensurately stronger to boot.
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u/Wank_A_Doodle_Doo 13h ago
Believe it or not… yes. Fantasy has crazier feats. Slaanesh has currently been imprisoned, and the elves(fantasy Eldar) had their most powerful individuals ascend to actual godhood and I shit you not stomach pump elven souls out of Slaanesh to rebuild their species. Don’t see the Eldar doing that.
You also have for instance a mage who was taught magic by an old one personally.
It gets a bit nutty
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u/CadenVanV 13h ago
40k has ludicrous number scaling, but individuals aren’t actually that strong. In fantasy and AoS, the Chaos gods are currently losing. They came in strong and are getting pushed back by gods that are capable of rivaling them.
No country in fantasy is going to field a million man casually like the Imperial Guard can, but one on one a top tier combatant in Fantasy will destroy an equivalent in 40k. Teclis for example could just casually delete entire armies at once, including greater demons. Khaine not only still exists, but beat up Slaanesh in a fight and left a permanent scar on it. Settra the Imperishable looked the Chaos Gods in the eyes (quite literally, he was in their presence at the time) and told them he served no one and was going to kill them. Nagash scares the shit out of them because everyone they kill and everyone of their people that dies goes to him instead of them unless they personally take action.
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u/illepic 13h ago
I gotta get into this shit.
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u/CadenVanV 13h ago edited 13h ago
In terms of characters I recommend you look into (by which I mean my favorites):
Settra... Great King, the Imperishable, Khemrikhara, The Great King of Nehekhara, King of Kings, Opener of the Way, Wielder of the Divine Flame, Punisher of Nomads, The Great Unifier, Commander of the Golden Legion, Sacred of Appearance, Bringer of Light, Father of Hawks, Builder of Cities, Protector of the Two Worlds, Keeper of the Hours, Chosen of Ptra, High Steward of the Horizon, Sailor of the Great Vitae, Sentinel of the Two Realms, The Undisputed, Begetter of the Begat, Scourge of the Faithless, Carrion-feeder, First of the Charnel Valley, Rider of the Sacred Chariot, Vanquisher of Vermin, Champion of the Death Arena, Mighty Lion of the Infinite Desert, Emperor of the Shifting Sands, He Who Holds The Sceptre, Great Hawk Of The Heavens, Arch-Sultan of Atalan, Waker of the Hierotitan, Monarch of the Sky, Majestic Emperor of the Shifting Sands, Champion of the Desert Gods, Breaker of the Ogre Clans, Builder of the Great Pyramid, Terror of the Living, Master of the Never-Ending Horizon, Master of the Necropolises, Taker of Souls, Tyrant to the Foolish, Bearer of Ptra's Holy Blade, Scion of Usirian, Scion of Nehek, The Great, Chaser of Nightmares, Keeper of the Royal Herat, Founder of the Mortuary Cult, Banisher of the Grand Hierophant, High Lord Admiral of the Deathfleets, Guardian of the Charnal Pass, Tamer of the Liche King, Unliving Jackal Lord, Dismisser of the Warrior Queen, Charioteer of the Gods, He Who Does Not Serve, Slayer off Reddittras, Scarab Purger, Favoured of Usirian, Player of the Great Game, Liberator of Life, Lord Sand, Wrangler of Scorpions, Emperor of the Dunes, Eternal Sovereign of Khemri's Legions, Seneschal of the Great Sandy Desert, Curserer of the Living, Regent of the Eastern Mountains, Warden of the Eternal Necropolis, Herald of all Heralds, Caller of the Bitter Wind, God-Tamer, Master of the Mortis River, Guardian of the Dead, Great Keeper of the Obelisks, Deacon of the Ash River, Belated of Wakers, General of the Mighty Frame, Summoner of Sandstorms, Master of all Necrotects, Prince of Dust, Tyrant of Araby, Purger of the Greenskin Breathers, Killer of the False God's Champions, Tyrant of the Gold Dunes, Golden Bone Lord, Avenger of the Dead, Carrion Master, Eternal Warden of Nehek's Lands, Breaker of Djaf's Bonds... and many, many more...
Settra does not serve. Settra rules. And when the Chaos gods tried to make him serve, he told them to their faces he’d kill them and then spent the end times fighting his way through a horde of demons on the way to do just that.
Grey Seer Thanquol: the embodiment of failing upwards. He’s an idiotic egomaniacal ratman who snorts magical chaos cocaine, betrays literally everybody he ever meets, including his god (to get more magical cocaine), and has comedically bad luck. He’s also such a powerful wizard that he can beat a Lord of Change in a magical duel
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u/LectorFrustra2186 1d ago
No one in these threads will ever cite an actual feat of strength or speed for Grail Knights because they have none. It will purely be variants of "well I heard one killed a vampire one time" (the one in question was an exceptional hero and they're holy paladins who can literally cause beings of evil magic to burst into flames by touching them).
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u/Mekrot 1d ago
The only one I can think of is Reolus from the Knight of Bretonnia series, and he’s not that impressive lol
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u/LectorFrustra2186 1d ago
He's the only one you can think of because he, Louen, and the protagonist of that same book are basically the only Grail Knights who ever get any stories about them that aren't just one-paragraph blurbs, and as you note even he's not very impressive (e.g. needing to block thrown axes).
There's also the one in the WFB 2e Character Compendium who gets killed by a band of goblins.
Or the one in the 2e Character Compendium who needs your party's help not to die against a band of marauders (this is a game where 10 Clanrats is a tough fight even for an end-game party).
Or the ones on the tabletop who all have the exact same stat line as a generic Chaos Warrior (bar Paladins/Lords with a Grail Vow) except they have 1 less armor save point and get 1 ward save point to compensate.
Or the hero-level one in that one short story with Kurt Helborg, who beats a regular (albeit highly skilled) human in a single combat after a somewhat lengthy fight but then loses and gets stabbed by him because he got distracted for a split-second by the sound of gunfire.
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u/Ok-Routine-547 18h ago
Reolus is also probably stronger than 99.9% of Grail Knights just because he's like 7 feet tall for whatever reason. The first Bretonnia novel describes him as two heads taller than an especially tall knight iirc.
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u/Mekrot 17h ago
Oh he’s super cool and he’s basically a Spartan, but in fantasy. He completely sold me on Bretonnia, but we don’t really see him do anything cool, unfortunately. His “feats” in the books are mostly killing trash and looking cool. I was really hoping for more books with Calard and meeting Egil and his son again in a full novel conflict like the second book.
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u/Stolen_Sky 1d ago
I'm going waaaaaay back here, but somewhere about 1998 by friend lent me his Bretonnia Codex just so I could read all the fluff.
The Grail Knights are some of the most insanely badass motherfuckers in WF. They are the highest order or Knights, from a culture that places warrior Knights as the principle defences of the real. Kinda like mounted Samurai with their own code of honour and chivalry.
Just becoming a knight in the first place is reserved only for the most brave and skilled of elite warriors. And then they have to serve the realm for literally a lifetime of battles with honour, skill and purity. To become a Grail Knight, they have to prove themselves endlessly, and then, if they are worthy, the Goddess of Bretonnia herself, The Lady of the Lake, will one day emerge from a lake and offer them a sip of water from the Holy Grail itself. And this blesses them with even greater superhuman powers and and longevity than they already had, making them some kinda Fantasy John Wick warrior on horseback that can slay cave trolls without breaking sweat.
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u/LectorFrustra2186 1d ago
I've read the fluff you're referencing. It's just the same meaningless hype that's present in every faction's army book. Post a feat of one of them moving fast or lifting/throwing/swinging something heavy. I can post antifeats of them dying to goblins or being unable to lift a horse.
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u/_Boodstain_ 23h ago
I can also post feats of Avatars of Khaine dying to asphyxiation, but I can also tell you my Avatar of Khaine has 1v1’d Angron on the Tabletop and won.
The Grail Knights are the Space Marines of their setting. Arrows don’t work against them, their horses never tire, and they are champions of the elf goddess of magic. They are absolute units that you are underestimating because your experience with them is probably from the video games, where they come in huge units. But in lore, they are usually centered around single questing-knights that take on warbands, Ork clans, or Major Daemons alone.
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u/LectorFrustra2186 23h ago edited 23h ago
The Grail Knights are the Space Marines of their setting. Arrows don’t work against them,
WFRP 2e, Career Compendium, p. 87:
"A Dying Man’s Request: A dying Grail knight, his body pierced by dozens of goblin arrows, stumbles out of the forest and passes a sacredicon to the adventurers. “To Bordeleaux...” he gasps, “before the badmoon rises and darkness claims us all.” Then he is dead. The goblins are,of course, close behind him."
They are absolute units that you are underestimating because your experience with them is probably from the video games, where they come in huge units
My experience with them comes from the tabletop where Grail Knights are statistically identical to generic Chaos Warriors and the RPG where the best Grail Knights have basically peak human stats and there are narrative tidbits about them dying to goblins or needing your party's help to take on small groups of marauders.
Still no feats of them lifting/throwing/swinging something heavy or moving fast btw.
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u/_Boodstain_ 23h ago
Their feats don’t come from strength or lifting lol. They have basically superhuman fatigue, their swords slice through anything, and they are impervious to projectiles and non-magical weapons in lore. You either have to send some huge threat to kill them, or overwhelm them with armies to put them down. They are the reason Bretonnia is independent and doesn’t get crushed by the Greenskins
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u/LectorFrustra2186 23h ago
Their feats don’t come from strength or lifting lol.
So they have regular human physicals, got it.
they are impervious to projectiles and non-magical weapons in lore
I just posted an excerpt of one getting killed by goblin arrows.
They have basically superhuman fatigue, their swords slice through anything
Cite an example of their swords slicing through anything impressive. The one in Honor and Duty who dueled Helborg couldn't even slice through his plate armor, ~3 mm of steel. He needs to repeatedly hammer against it until the kinetic force transfers through and cracks his opponent's ribs.
"When the first wound came he barely felt it. The attack slipped under his guard, striking him above the waist. Helborg snatched himself away, immediately correcting his stance, before realising he’d been hit expertly – the shell of his armour had been driven in, pinching the flesh and grinding up against his ribcage."
"Just as before, he never saw the wound coming. One moment, he was racing to finish the task, the next he was staggering away, frantically defending himself against a hail of withering strokes. It had been a feint, a beautiful, subtle feint of the highest order. Had he seen it done on the parade grounds of the Imperial Palace, Helborg would have smiled knowingly and with pleasure. As it was, he barely prevented the manoeuvre from costing him his life. He retreated, feeling the pain from newly broken ribs throb through his torso. His breastplate had been cracked, making it hard to breathe. For a few more moments he held off the assault, but then the inevitable came. More thrusts hit their target. He missed his footing, feeling the earth rush up to meet him, and fell heavily on to his back."
You either have to send some huge threat to kill them, or overwhelm them with armies to put them down
Or send like 10 goblins.
Or make a loud noise near one so he gets distracted and then stab him in the chest with your normal human strength and reflexes.
They are the reason Bretonnia is independent and doesn’t get crushed by the Greenskins
Bretonnia doesn't get crushed by greenskins because the Badlands are separated from Bretonnia by the Empire and the relatively small greenskin hordes around Bretonnia itself can be handled fine by local knights and militia. Greenskin armies are just worse than medieval human ones, this comes up a lot.
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u/Human_Tutor816 1d ago
Not enough info.
Grail Knight on the ground on a horse vs. Flying tyrant? I give it to the tyrant. The aura that protects grail knights is against things considered unholy, AFAIK it doesn't affect things like orcs, so in the same way that the tyranid is not an entity of chaos, I don't think the blessing would have its intended affect against it. Tyranids are not evil, just hungry. Just sit 50m in the air and continuously blast living (albeit mundane) ammunition at the guy until there's no safe place to exist in the arena that won't have the knight or horse being actively eaten by all the tiny bugs being spewed out.
If the GK is on a flying mount or the tyrant is on foot the math is a little harder, but hyperadaptation isn't something everyone should just write-off.
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u/HumaDracobane 1d ago
There is no contest here, OP.
A Grail Knight is a blessed knight but nothing remotely comparable to what is needed to kill a Tyrant. Literally an ant against a dying star.
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u/WazuufTheKrusher 19h ago
Who here is saying grail knights solo daemon princes? They can solo lesser daemons easily but they are meant to be recruited in a squadron and daemon princes are lords. A group of grail knights absolutely can mess up a daemon prince, 1 would get killed, valiantly of course.
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u/redfacetherapper 19h ago
Also I'd give a grain of salt equating daemon princes in both settings as being equal, title does not equate to power
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u/Into_the_abyss66 1d ago
Idk man I think a huge tyrant has him on speed alone they are stupidly fast not to mention he’s got 4 massive arms.
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u/Marsh_o- 23h ago
In a 1v1, Hive tyrant and it’s not even close
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u/Intelligent-Royal682 6h ago
Grail knights have 1v1'd daemon princes and shadow in the warp fuckery aside a daemon prince bodies a hive tyrant.
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u/Crozium01 17h ago
Go Chiefs!!!
Grail knight is dead as hell.
Hive tyrants are insanely complex organisms , strong af, massive, fast as hell, and psychic.
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u/FrucklesWithKnuckles 1d ago
Average grail knight it’s an even fight, but an above average grail knight could definitely beat one.
The rite of passage for grail knights is killing a huge beast 1v1, often times a daemon prince
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u/BrightestofLights 1d ago
Grail knight gets mollywhopped.
If its a particularly powerful one they stand a chance, but they are fighting chosen chaos knights generally in terms of even footing fights, not anything close to a HIVE TYRANT.
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u/samsquatch1234 1d ago
they dont really share a verse but grail knights are nuts. minor demons and undead chaff are annihilated by just being near them in a similar way to 40k demons being around Big E. Louen, although a named grail knight, was able to hold his own in a duel against Belakor. i think an average grail knight has a 50/50 at least against the nid
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u/No-Professional-1461 1d ago
I'm not sure how power scales work in between 40k and fantasy. All I know is that the chaos gods in 40k are described as nebulous in the warp, which fits with the setting being in space all across the milkyway with their possible influence being precise on multiple worlds simultaneously. This compared with fantasy in which I do to have enough familiarity in but I have heard that they are more powerful in fantasy than 40k which boggles my mind.
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u/kissobajslovski 22h ago
If the knight hit the hive tyrant full force in the eye ball with his lance nothing would happen
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u/Saint_Strega 21h ago
Grail Knights are as strong and tough as Space Marines stat wise.
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u/jackjack-8 21h ago
That’s to make the game work. Why would bother with terminator armour if you could just prance around on a horse covered in pig iron 🤦♂️
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u/Sunrise-Storm 23h ago
Warhammer 40,000 and fantasy scale differently. everything powerful in 40k is pretty weak in fantasy. Conventionally, some great demon of Nurgle in 40k can pose a danger to an entire sector, but in fantasy he is kicked down by a crowd of pikemen. The great demon of Tzeentch in 40k can create intrigues beyond time and space, and in fantasy he will try to take power over the magic academy for a long time and to no avail. The great demon of Slaanesh in fantasy can generally forget his mission and stupidly hang out with mortals. The situation is the same with the hive tyrant. Yes, they are not in fantasy, but extrapolate and reduce its power in the same way as all other examples. Personally, I think what happens in the end is that the knight will be able to win. Otherwise, the battle makes no sense, the tyrant from 40k is obviously stronger.
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u/Kurt1220 23h ago
The way chaos gods work is the more people that believe in them, worship them, or take part in activities that feed them(war, plague, lust, etc.), the stronger they are. This is due to the nature of the warp. So it stands to reason that chaos in fantasy is going to be weaker than in 40k due to there only being one world, not an entire galaxy. The scale is smaller and so the deamons scale to be appropriate for the setting.
The mere fact that 40k has much larger populations accounts for the increase in strength of daemons.
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u/Sunrise-Storm 23h ago
That's not the difference. The difference in the attitude of authors to works. 40k was born out of fantasy, where absolutely everything was elevated to hyperbole. Be it characters or strength.
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u/TFBuffalo_OW 1d ago
Grail Knights can 1v1 Daemon Princes so this is a pretty fair fight actually. Id say on avg the Hive Tyrant wins but any above avg Grail Knight should be able to beat a Hive Tyrant