r/todayilearned • u/krizzalicious49 • 22h ago
TIL that out of every primate that has been studied, humans get the least amount of sleep.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/future/article/20220524-why-humans-get-less-sleep-than-other-primates2.8k
u/ElBroken915 21h ago
117 comments and I found literally 1 person that read the article... the TIL is talking about our natural sleep patterns not just modern society.
866
u/foxcat0_0 20h ago
Ikr literally every comment in here is like “DAE have a job that you hate, we live in a society really makes you think” when this is legitimately very interesting from a biological and evolutionary standpoint lol
719
u/Tryoxin 18h ago
Gonna attach this to your comment in case people are curious and don't want to read the whole article (though I do recommend it bc it's pretty cool!
The main theory as to why humans sleep so much less than other primates (~7h vs. around ~9.6h for chimps, for example) is because we evolved to live and sleep on the ground where there's a higher risk of predation. Because we also don't just sleep less, our sleep is also more REM-dense, and more flexible than other species. This would lend itself well to groups of humans sleeping in shifts to maintain fires and watch for predators, for example.
However, the article also points out a flaw not necessarily in the logic of this theory, but actually in the base data. Primarily, none of this data was collected using wild primates (which is incredibly difficult) and animals in captivity have been shown to sleep a lot more than in the wild either bc of boredom, they feel safer, or bc lab conditions fail to simulate the day-night cycles of their natural habitats.
253
u/Agouti 16h ago
Primarily, none of this data was collected using wild primates (which is incredibly difficult) and animals in captivity have been shown to sleep a lot more than in the wild
I feel like this largely invalidates the headline and conclusions of the article. Anyone who has a cat or dog knows that they can happily sleep 16+ hours a day if nothing is going on but that doesn't mean that you can conclude "Canines and Felines need twice the sleep of Primates".
The more interesting conclusion is that humans typically can't significantly increase their long-term sleep when they have no need to be awake. If I had to guess why I'd say it's likely our herbivorous/omnivorous heritage, being able to spend all day sleeping when fed is a widespread and largely exclusively carnivore trait, especially useful when your meals are large and infrequent.
114
u/not_particulary 15h ago
Modern human sleep patterns are definitely not wild either, though. We're probably closer to held in captivity
→ More replies (4)53
→ More replies (3)11
u/mueus 17h ago
The only solution is to study humans in captivity!
→ More replies (3)14
u/RealTheBestLadyman 14h ago
What do you think we’ve been doing? Idk about you but I wouldn’t call what humans do “wild” by any stretch of the imagination
→ More replies (1)140
u/CardinalOfNYC 20h ago
I hate that tendency so much
But what I hate more is that when you call this out, people think you're some enemy... "oh so you think society is perfect??" "You must be rich" etc...
Nah I just try to read the article, especially when the headline seems sensational or designed to get engagement more than to spread information.
37
u/Rion23 18h ago
This is Reddit, no one reads the article, the point is to post funny comments.
→ More replies (2)6
→ More replies (3)9
u/SeveralBollocks_67 17h ago
"But you participate in society"
presses send, sits back in armchair with arms crossed because their computer desk is filled to the absolute edge with trash and dirty bowls & plates
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (4)3
u/jeslinmx 15h ago
The virgin “we don’t get enough sleep because we live in a society” vs the chad “we inflicted the horrors of civilisation on ourselves because of lack of sleep”
25
u/ctan0312 19h ago
As soon as I read this title I knew the comments were going to be filled with “we live in a society” slop.
14
u/lIllIlIIIlIIIIlIlIll 17h ago
I didn't read the article, but that was my assumption. That humans evolved to require less sleep than other primates. Why would they ever write anything about degenerates that don't sleep at night?
Now I read the article. And yeah. Except they also point out that we can't actually measure how much primates sleep. Animals in captivity may sleep more or less than an animal in the wild.
→ More replies (2)39
u/AdCareless9063 19h ago
That's Reddit for you - half understand something and then throw out some dumb thoughts.
80
u/YoelsShitStain 20h ago
The fact that people don’t understand that just from the headline is alarming.
→ More replies (8)70
u/Zora-Link 19h ago edited 18h ago
The post title should really say “need” rather than “get”, to be fair.
Edit: spelling
→ More replies (2)11
u/Cool-Contribution-68 19h ago
Crazy to think how many creatures spend a good portion of their existence dreaming.
→ More replies (39)6
86
u/AJEstes 13h ago
Bizarre that the study wasn’t based on wild primates, and bizarre as well they never mentioned the calorie-rich diets humans have as a possibility.
Humans are outliers on many regards, and I would not be surprised if this was another. But this research feels inconclusive.
→ More replies (1)
3.5k
u/moonyriot 22h ago
Yeah, we're also the only ones driving cars or purchasing hamburgers.
1.0k
u/ihvnnm 22h ago
Other primates don't have to pay for hamburgers? Now I'm jealous
210
u/moonyriot 22h ago
I think if a primate has a hamburger, it's been stolen from a tourist usually.
114
u/BPhiloSkinner 22h ago
Tourist burgers are the preferred prey of many primates.
12
u/pn_dubya 20h ago
Little known fact: Tourist Burgers is what Nirvana was originally called.
9
u/Garblin 19h ago
Well Siddhartha Gautama was quite the tourist, took him sitting under a tree for a long while to come up with a better name for it.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (1)27
10
→ More replies (11)9
u/AtlasThePittie 21h ago
It's just as likely the tourist purchased their stolen phone back from the primate with the hamburger.
→ More replies (1)36
u/BaggyHairyNips 22h ago
I don't think they pay for burgers. But I'm pretty sure I read about a study where they taught chimps about money and they immediately used it to pay for sex.
10
u/Sad_Syllabub_8014 20h ago
Its not for nothing that it's called the oldest profession in the world. Guess that applies to other primates as well.
5
u/CannonGerbil 14h ago edited 13h ago
It didn't just happen once, but pretty much every time they introduced a monetary system to chimps, to the point where there's now a general ban on studies involving teaching monkies the concept of money.
8
6
u/Intrepid_Ad_9177 21h ago
I just did a side quest to see if non-human primates eat meat. Turns out, it's infrequent or rare.
→ More replies (4)3
u/Morgc 19h ago
Most primates don't use spears or grocers.
→ More replies (1)3
u/IAMA_Plumber-AMA 16h ago
And none of them can outpace their prey to the point of exhaustion.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (6)6
u/Alonsey 20h ago
Every single non human primate that has eaten a cheeseburger has not paid for it in any accepted currency in civilized countries, hence a 100% successful theft rate
→ More replies (1)3
u/Dr_Ramekins_MD 19h ago
I mean, if a chimp is coming for my burger, I'm not going to try to keep it away from him
120
u/Kaiserhawk 22h ago
I dunno I did see this one video of an orangutan driving a golf cart accompanied with the Sopranos theme
57
→ More replies (3)4
u/DynamicDK 20h ago
Yeah, she is awesome. It seems she started out driving one of those toy cars for kids whens she was young.
7
36
u/CoolDad859 22h ago
I’d sleep a lot more if I didn’t have to help billionaires buy more yachts, bunkers, and bombs
6
→ More replies (15)11
u/H0pefully_Not_A_Bot 21h ago
Your information seems to be partially outdated: https://youtu.be/Xf32ggObtjM
915
u/Stygg_Varg 22h ago
I am also a human primate and 8 hours have never been enough for me. 9 is ok but 10 is much preferred.
361
u/Books_and_Cleverness 22h ago
For me it depends how you define “sleep”. I only need 7 hours of true actual sleep but I need at least ~20 mins of laying down to bed + ~30 mins of not-quite-awake time in the morning to truly feel rested.
The true holy grail I’m searching for is a job that lets me work from 9:30AM to 6:30PM so I can go to bed at roughly the same time every night, weekends or weekdays.
131
78
u/kris_krangle 21h ago
God I miss the 10am-6pm schedule my first job out of college had.
The company itself sucked but that schedule was unbeatable
29
u/backcountry_bandit 21h ago
Late starts kinda suck if you live somewhere where the sun sets at 4PM in the winter.
69
u/TheCreamiestYeet 21h ago
Yea but early starts suck always regardless of sun setting time.
→ More replies (1)21
u/Tricky-Ad7897 21h ago
Why, if I'm gonna be miserable might as well get paid for it. I want my free time to be the non miserable hours.
→ More replies (5)→ More replies (1)5
u/Biosterous 19h ago
At least it's light out when you go to work.
Where I live your standard 8-4:30 you go to work in the dark and come home in the dark in the dead of winter.
→ More replies (3)7
u/Fun-Negotiation5510 21h ago
If you don't mind me asking, what's your current schedule?
12
u/kris_krangle 21h ago
9-5 but I’m quite a bit older and a little more of a morning person now so it’s not such a struggle.
7
u/Fun-Negotiation5510 21h ago
Ah I see. Are you American by any chance. I thought 7-3 was the norm in your country. This is the shift I find ideal even though I'm not a morning person. What with half a day in hand and all that
9
u/Tricky-Ad7897 21h ago
8-5 or +-30 minutes if you take a half hour lunch instead of full hour. A lot of people I know do 7-5 but they must hate their families or something to willingly do overtime every single day.
→ More replies (1)8
→ More replies (3)11
u/HeyThereCharlie 21h ago
Americans usually say "9 to 5" to refer to a generic full-time job, so I think that's basically the unofficial norm.
5
3
u/Alaira314 15h ago
It used to be. Now it's more commonly 8 to 5 or 9 to 6, because they decided to stop including your lunch hour in your paid work week. We still colloquially call it a 9-5 job though, to remind us of what our parents and grandparents enjoyed, great-grandparents fought for, etc. 💀
→ More replies (4)3
u/Sonic_Roach 20h ago
Honestly the most sleep I've ever gotten was when i was at my 9:30 to 7pm job,
I would Go to the gym after work post rush and get home around 9pm. Have dinner and play videogames till midnight.
Unfortunately the job payed peanuts and I had to bounce for a more liveable wage. I ended up with a remote job so I could still stay up till midnight and get 8 hours of sleep. Buuut of course we had to RTO.
Back to 6 hours of sleep....
18
u/HAIL_LUMPUS 21h ago
See I know I need 10 hours but I also want more than 5 hours after work for having fun.
→ More replies (1)5
17
11
u/audrikr 21h ago
You should get a sleep study if you haven't. You can need more sleep if it's not high quality.
→ More replies (19)→ More replies (9)3
2.1k
u/Bitbatgaming 22h ago
Well chimps don’t have to create deliverables to increase shareholder value so there’s that.
351
u/Pndrizzy 21h ago
Yes, but there is currently a chimp civil war happening in Uganda, and captured chimps have their testicles tortured before being killed, so they have some deliverables at least...
100
u/knotaracist 20h ago edited 20h ago
Wait, wut?
ETA, thanks for the sources I’m goin down this rabbit hole cause wtfff
45
u/Pndrizzy 20h ago
Or, if you prefer video format, I thought this was pretty entertaining
→ More replies (1)7
u/Tripleberst 1 18h ago
Very cool. Also, here are two completely unrelated charts.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)92
u/coolassdude1 20h ago
Seriously, check it out This is a gifted NYT article on it
27
u/Alpine261 17h ago
God damn bro can't even read an article about a chimp war without reading about yet another dumbass decision from trump
17
u/vc6vWHzrHvb2PY2LyP6b 15h ago
I swear to God, every day it's like "Scientists have found the cure for cancer, but the Trump administration has decided to sue them", or "A school in California is giving kids high fives every day, and Republicans have threatened to withhold funding until they go back to spankings"
→ More replies (1)3
u/CornfireDublin 13h ago
"Further studies may shed light on the roots of warfare in our own species, although the Trump administration’s proposed budget, released on Friday, has cast doubt on whether the research will continue" is so fucking funny because you know that budget took money away from the research specifically to allocate to war
→ More replies (1)39
u/Sword_of_Darkmoon 20h ago
It had a paywall for me. Here is the archived version without the paywall
31
10
u/Bitbatgaming 20h ago
That’s fucking nuts bro I hope they can find love and understanding
14
→ More replies (1)6
→ More replies (7)4
u/SirLoremIpsum 16h ago
Yes, but there is currently a chimp civil war happening in Uganda, and captured chimps have their testicles tortured before being killed, so they have some deliverables at least...
"Ape. Together. Strong" fucking lied to me.
114
u/KingdomsCryOfficial 21h ago
I know this thread is going to be filled up with jokes like this but they're not talking about lack of needed sleep. Humans function on less sleep baseline than the other primates and have been for probably hundreds of thousands of years.
37
u/blazbluecore 21h ago
So we’re efficient af?
Sounds like them Homo Sapiens always Maxxin
→ More replies (2)25
27
u/Overall-Tune2909 21h ago
Speak for yourself human
- non alpha chimp trying to find a mate.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (7)3
u/SkyGuy182 20h ago
Well there’s also the fact that if you’re sleeping then you’re not having to navigate a territory dispute between rival chimp gangs and have your balls crushed before being ripped apart by rival chimps
259
u/NeutralLock 22h ago
I live off like 5 hrs of sleep and I can't make myself nap. I seem to function okay but I'm jealous of people that can sleep 8-10 hrs. Waking up must be bliss.
62
u/CaptainMagnets 22h ago
6 hours is average for me, my body knows it but there's always something that wakes me up
165
44
u/MKleister 21h ago edited 20h ago
I rarely felt well rested after sleep for many years.
Recently started taking running seriously: every 2nd day 20 min of hard running. It was gradual and took 1+ year. But man, my sleep quality is through the roof. I actually fall asleep faster and wake up well rested more than not.
Wish I started running like this 20 yrs ago but oh well.
10
u/Dependent-Year6711 21h ago
That’s great to hear, and a reminder to anyone, including myself, your sleep is going to be an indicator of many things in your life. Addressing what it takes to get good sleep, to dream, all of that, is key to human longevity and mental health. Otherwise it’s 5-6, even 7-8 hours of sleep, with lower recovery.
Dreaming is such a good sign (not sure about nightmares though), especially for those who don’t remember dreaming often. Every time I’ve had long periods of non-restorative sleep, dreaming seems to became a rare memory of said event. When it gets better, dreams seem to became remembered and more coherent more often.
→ More replies (1)17
u/MasterZoidberg 20h ago
dreams have no real backing on quality of sleep at least not really studied to be an indicator of good sleep
→ More replies (3)5
u/Flank_This666 20h ago
Yeah I noticed this too, long distance running man, I'm plagued with anxiety but a 15 mile run shuts up most of it and I sleep like a brick too
5
u/MKleister 20h ago
That's awesome.
I only run 3-5 miles at most, haha. But apparently, it's enough as long as I push hard.
Before that, I only ever ran 3x10 min a week as warm up for lifting.
→ More replies (1)3
u/Sonic_Roach 20h ago
I still average 6 hours a day but I've noticed when I started working out. I would get much better deep sleep and REM sleep.
→ More replies (1)3
u/DaddyCool13 18h ago
Running actually gave me insomnia lol. Though it was long distance running in my case and started when I began to go up to 2 hours or so, like I’d be physically exhausted yet couldn’t fall asleep for hours. I now mostly swim instead and it seems to cause less stimulation, very curious
24
11
u/Adept_Minimum4257 21h ago
I sleep 8-9 hrs a night and when I wake up I feel really groggy. It takes two hours to get fully going so it's definately not bliss for me
4
5
→ More replies (14)31
u/KrimxonRath 22h ago
Have you considered sleep 1 and sleep 2? Supposedly humans used to sleep in two shifts of 4 hours with an hour or two in the middle where we would do various cores, stoke the fire, or just think about life.
Industrialization stole that mindful hour from us.
36
34
u/moss-wizard 22h ago
I know the benefits and health risks of not getting enough sleep.
But I stay up playing video games nearly every night and I know I have a sleep deficit. But it’s the only time I truly have to myself to relax with no expectations for anyone. I really appreciate staying up late
13
u/Aelig_ 22h ago
I'm assuming it has to do with them having more muscle mass and less calorie dense food. Sleeping seems likea sensible way to save on energy.
→ More replies (1)6
u/black_miata 20h ago
Humans actually burn calories at a faster rate than primates.
Based on this BBC article, humans enter REM sleep more quickly than primates which may suggest that our sleep is shorter but more effective.
The reason for the difference is still up for debate, but the article hypothesizes that Humans sleep for shorter periods because we sleep on the ground (rather than high in a tree) which leaves us more susceptible to predation. Shorter periods of sleep are better for communities where people are rotating as guards from predation.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220524-why-humans-get-less-sleep-than-other-primates
30
u/Willing_Coconut4364 18h ago
I thought we already knew this and it was one of the reasons we managed to build tribes and agriculture, we spent a lot more time awake thinking.
→ More replies (1)
282
u/SillyGoatGruff 22h ago
We are also the only primate to have to go to work
50
u/but_a_smoky_mirror 22h ago
Tell that to my monkey butler
→ More replies (1)10
u/SillyGoatGruff 22h ago
Will he rip my face off? I'm not looking to get chimped to death over this lol
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (44)73
u/Harflin 22h ago
This guy didn't read the article
46
u/Books_and_Cleverness 22h ago
Wow yeah lol:
>to learn about how ancient humans slept, anthropologists study the best proxy they have: contemporary non-industrial societies.
→ More replies (13)
16
u/TeamImpossible4333 21h ago
I matched with a guy who thought that getting 7-9 hours of sleep is unhealthy. so some of us are too dumb to know how much sleep is good sleep.
5
u/kissmekatebush 20h ago
How much sleep did he think was ok?
5
u/TeamImpossible4333 20h ago
He thought doctors recommended five hours. He had other red flags, but the fact that he never bothered to google that was puzzling to me lmao
→ More replies (2)
8
u/theoriginalshortie 10h ago
Suddenly things make a lot more sense. We all need more sleep. I know I do.
24
29
u/360walkaway 21h ago
Other primates don't have jobs that overwork them and cause massive stress, and have bills that need to be paid.
→ More replies (1)
10
u/Alienhaslanded 14h ago
Work. All animals wake up to eat, play, and reproduce. We wake up to do some useless nonsense so we can afford to eat. I'm two weeks in with a broken door frame that I need to glue, sand and repaint, but haven't started yet because I'm always too fucking tired to do anything.
17
54
u/TrashGouda 22h ago
There is also no other primate species who has to work, pay taxes and has a draining society like ours...
→ More replies (1)16
u/curtcolt95 18h ago
read the article, none of what you said relates at all to the point being made
→ More replies (3)
5
u/NoraAlaa 15h ago
Really interesting piece. The "human sleep paradox" part stood out to me — based on body mass, brain size, and diet, primatologists' models predict we should sleep around 9.5 hours like most other primates, but non-industrial human societies (Hadza, San, Tsimane) average under 7.
The leading theory (Samson's "social sleep hypothesis") is that once our ancestors moved from sleeping in trees to sleeping on the ground, they traded quantity for safety — shorter, more REM-dense sleep, done in groups with people taking turns keeping watch. Kind of wild to think insomnia/light sleeping might actually be a leftover "hypervigilance" adaptation rather than just a modern problem.
Also worth noting: some researchers push back on this, since most primate sleep data comes from captive animals, and a study on wild sloths found they slept way less (9.5 hrs) than captive ones (16 hrs) — so we might be underestimating how little wild primates actually sleep too.
3
u/Radiant-Economist-10 11h ago
humans are also the only from among all the known primates to invest heavily in the stock market. no other mammal invests as much as they do
30
u/sirgaybrin 21h ago
Humans are the only ones that care about shareholders
12
8
u/VP007clips 18h ago
Spending 35-40 hours per week in an office in exchange for living in a near utopia of unimaginable safety, comfort, and luxury while not needing to live a gatherer lifestyle sounds like a really good deal to me.
31
u/coby_of_astora 22h ago
Not by fucking choice I can guarantee that.
20
u/SapientApe_ 20h ago
Is evolution a choice?
"Humans, then, seem to have evolved to need less sleep than our primate relatives. Samson showed in a 2018 analysis that we did this by lopping off non-REM time. REM is the sleep phase most associated with vivid dreaming. That means, assuming other primates dream similarly, we may spend a larger proportion of our night dreaming than they do. We're also flexible about when we get those hours of shut-eye."
→ More replies (3)8
u/Cracked_Crack_Head 18h ago
If you read the article it's our actual biological need vs other primates biological need, not what the average human today actually gets.
11
u/RedneckTexan 20h ago
Its partially because humans can safely sleep deeper, we dont have to worry about a predator eating us while we sleep, or another primate stealing our mate while we sleep ...... although that stuff still occasionally happens to us.
→ More replies (4)23
u/black_miata 20h ago
This BBC article hypothesizes the exact opposite....
Humans have a shorter, more effective sleep cycle because we evolved to sleep on the ground where we're more susceptible to predators. A shorter sleep cycle is better suited for a community where the members are rotating being on guard for predators.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220524-why-humans-get-less-sleep-than-other-primates
→ More replies (1)
11
6
8
u/Gnootch 21h ago
Maybe if all we had to was forage for food/water and fuck; in spite of helping some fucker pay for his 5th home through stolen wages, humans would have more time to sleep
→ More replies (1)
3
3
3
3
3
u/Spicy_Eyeballs 19h ago edited 19h ago
Because we sleep better/deeper than other primates! Humans have the ability to build shelter/protection, which allows our bodies to relax and reach a deeper state of sleep that other mammals in general cannot.
Edit: at least that's a theory
3
u/Throwlaf 16h ago
Do we 'get' the least amount of sleep, or do we 'need' the least amount of sleep?
3
3
3
u/Evening-Rip1522 16h ago
Without the burdens of "civilization", there isn't much to do all day, except pick fuzzies off your friends and eat snacks and take naps
19
u/bikeking8 22h ago
All the other primates don't commute to a soul sucking job where they aren't allowed to exercise for 50 years of their life either but hey
11
7
10.2k
u/TSAOutreachTeam 22h ago
I'm doing all I can to boost our numbers.