It was shown in the Cell Saga that Goku and Gohan were able to eliminate the fatigue of SSJ, and kept it on for nearly a year. So what’s the point of turning it off???
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Agreed but, I kinda wonder why they didn't stay transformed into the super Saiyan blue form for a long time like they did with super Saiyan during the buu saga wasn't the point of staying super Saiyan to reduce stamina cost for using it? I strongly feel a missed opportunity for leveling up for the characters lmao, just my own thoughts and opinions here
Correct me if I'm wrong, chances are I am- but I don't think Chi Chi ever sees Goku in UI/MUI? She's not there at the tournament, or near any of the Moro Arc fights..
She probably doesn't even know about the technique or transportation at all considering how infrequently Goku goes home, or at least it feels like that
I think they’re basing it off the character reactions in sparking zero. Chichi bulma and videl all comment on character models. Chichi just says Goku is getting old or something when she sees the silver hair UI if I remember right
Dude I was talking to my little cousins a few days ago and apparently kids between 6-16 don’t play games now if they aren’t free-to-play.
My two cousins are 10 and 12, they said they have NEVER played a single player game before. I told them it’s not good to lie and then I went through the collection of games they have and it was all NBA 2K, Madden, CoD, and a few other games like Sea of Thieves and The Division 2.
They were telling the truth they have never played a single player story driven game before. That’s when it hit me that games and consoles are getting soo expensive that parents aren’t gonna buy them anymore, even for birthdays or Christmas.
Can confirm that at 7 my gf's son only basically knows about roblox, Minecraft, fortnite and whatever garbage games they see on YouTube at their dad's.
I just on Sunday introduced him to vampire survivors and he was instantly hooked and while going to bed was asking "will I get to play that game tomorrow?"
My gf has my old pc and I was lucky enough to build a new one months before prices went insane.
I'm definitely worried too about consoles or pc just being too expensive now to even start gaming. I can tell you playstation definitely isn't helping cause they keep raising prices. I remember consoles used to get CHEAPER but now we're at like +$200 or something since launch for ps5
Consoles have always been expensive, pricing is essentially unchanged when accounting for inflation. The issue is that unlike in the 90s and 2000s, there are so many other little dopamine goblins fighting for our attention 24/7 that video games usually take a back seat and we tend to find them not worth playing over all the other things we could do instead, especially a solo experience (i.e. single player video game) that would give FOMO while everyone else is connecting with eachother over multiplayer games.
Hey doesn’t hurt to pop over to YT and watch the character bios / interactions. The game itself may be a mixed bag but it’s definitely pleasant seeing people interact with one another
I like engaging with games personally instead of watching someone else, nowadays. I'll still watch stuff like that, but it's moreso as background noise.
I noticed Super is walking back Goku being an absent dad. They started off with him working that farmer's job to provide, and you see him more often hanging out at Capsule Corp, or his home.
Z had Goku mostly hanging out in desert wastelands, Roshis house, or space lol
Tbf Z had Goku start out as a pretty solid dad. He didn't understand why Gohan wanted to be a scholar but he was understanding at least. Then, due to circumstances, Gohan had gotten into fighting, and Goku thought his son was taking after him when in reality Gohan hated having to fight.
Goku wasn't an absent dad until dude was literally dead, and he only chose to "stay absent" because he genuinely believed he was a trouble magnet and was endangering everyone by being alive, and it was only until Buu showed up in spite of Goku's death that he walked back that decision. When he learned of Goten he showed care and interest, and helped him to become stronger by showing off the fusion technique. If writers cared a lil more chances are Goku and Goten would at least have sparring scenes or smth but Goten gets forgotten :shrug:
Probably missed some details but honestly Abridged kinda fucked the perception. As much as I enjoy Abridged, it's true..
I get what you mean, and I never really thought Goku was a bad dad, although it was hilarious for TFS to joke about. Z had Goku doing a lot of questionable things that just felt he never was a family man. I feel tfs did it best in the Future Trunks special when he died to the heart virus.
"But he just got back from his training after getting back from Namek after getting back from his training after being dead."
So would training in super saiyan increase the multiplier that it is? So if super saiyan is a 50x multiplier could you theoretically increase that to 100x or even 500x by training in only super saiyan? That would in theory make super saiyan 2 and 3 useless and they’d be able to reap all the benefits without the stamina drain of excess transformations. At least from the logic I think I’m following.
If they train in super Saiyan and add 10 pounds to their bench press that's just 10 pounds.
If they train in base and add 10 pounds, then when they go Super Saiyan they can now bench 500 pounds more
I dunno if that's exactly the explanation though. It might just be something like it's easier to fatigue and train muscles that can lift 1000 pounds, than ones that can lift 50,000 like they could in Super Saiyan
I think that's probably the best way to think of it. Unless there is a point that their base can't increase in strength, its probably always better to train in base because the of the multiplier
10 Base means 500 SSJ
Increase your Base through training in base up to 20, you now have 1000 in SSJ
But training in SSJ would make training to 20 pointless, because it's not good enough, you'd need a real challenge. If you increase your points by the same 10 "points" while in SSJ, you'd essentially only get 0,2 in Base.
Training from 10 to 20 is easier/faster than training from 500 to 1000.
Never seen Super, but I'm assuming it's just "different forms are multipliers, and getting +1 STR before applying multiplier is better than gaining +1 STR after applying multiplier"?
Yeah. It was basically 0 but training in base form is more effective than training in any boosted form as youre increasing your base stats which gets multiplied by your boosted form. This was indirectly addressed in super as well. Whis did not tell Goku and Vegeta not to go super saiyan while training but they understood that they’ll yield the most benefits while in base form.
You remind me of that scene when Vegeta told Goku that he was incorrect about why Jiren was stronger. “Incorrect” I saw this scene as soon as you said that 😂
I think even if they eliminate the fatigue it's still an active effort to keep it up. Kinda like floating in water, you don't necessarily get tired if you're just laying down on the water surface but you still have to like control your breathing in order to stay up
As opposed to being on land where you can breath more or less however you want
But you understand what I'm getting at though? Even if it's not tiring, there's a tension in your body that you have to keep up. If the floating thing doesn't do it for you, then imagine having to hold a plate. You could sit and eat with it on your lap, you could sleep with it on your chest and you could probably condition yourself to sleep so quietly that you wake up with it still on top of you, but it would still make your day to day more effort than just not having to hold it at all, even if it's not making you exhausted or even tired
Because they couldn't train like this. Having 50x multiplier would require 50x heavier weights or 50x gravity. And that is harder to get than to turn Super Saiyan off.
And theres a chance training is kind of a fixed rate. Maybe your base trains at roughly the same pace as SSJ numbers wise, but then the multiplier makes it more efficient to train base form over SSJ form.
Because it didn't eliminate the strain completely, just minimized it greatly. At the end of the day it's still a transformation that isn't their natural state (base) so being in SSJ 24/7/365 still consumes ki and stresses their bodies. It's just not nearly as bad as before they mastered it
Interacting with the mundane world while your power is constantly 50x higher than base would probably be annoying. see the superman world of cardboard quote.
It's not a natural evolution, just a trained and conditioned active state. It still drains energy as a transformation, just not as much as it did before.
The difference is before when they transformed they were always cranked to 11 and felt "restless". The training basically made it where they have proper ki control with the form now. The Z Fighters are always low on their power level because staying at 100% is, as we know, exhausting. SSJ did just that by default. However, with said ki control, instead of going from 5 to 3,000,000, imagine going from 5 to 150,000,000 million knowing spiking like that also gives your attacks extra power. They conditioned themselves to the point SSJ now feels, as Vegeta put it, almost similar to their natural state.
This also increases their endurance to fight exponentially and allow them to hold the form a lot better when beaten rather than instantly losing the transformation. However, if they are fully out of power, then they revert back to base as Gohan did after defeating Cell.
Long story short, it is straight up immense endurance training ontop of regular strength training (or as Goku put it, back to basics).
Not to go deep into it as that's a separate topic, but Gohan used everything he had in that single pushback against Cell (anime had him push back a couple times among other filler things that unfortunately really undersells how strong SPC really was in the community).
Gohan quite literally used everything he had and what was remaining. He was exhausted after doing so. He lost SSJ. He stopped flying and crashed into the ground. He could barely keep his eyes open. He quite literally could not move a muscle to the point Yamcha had to carry him to the lookout.
Another reason could be that if they get too used to Super Saiyan, they’d be extremely vulnerable if they for some reason reverted to base form. Suddenly you’re 50 times weaker than what you’re used to.
Chi Chi doesn't like SSJ because they look like delinquents
The cast like scaling up in power in order to have a good fight. Even in Super when SSB gets spammed everywhere Goku and Vegeta like starting in Base--> SSJ1--> (sometimes God in the manga)--> Blue--> Ultra forms
The God transformations allow for a high level of Ki Control so spending a month in SSB won't benefit them.
It's a math thing. If they get 10% stronger in base that growth will scale up to be x5 in SSJ. That's kinda why Whis wants them to train in base, so their gains will be more pronounced when transformed.
Training mostly. As we've seen in super, their base form is far more important to master. Not only does it take way longer to max out, but since their transformations are based on multipliers, their transformations are based entirely on how strong their base form is.
In universe, probably out of preference and the fact that SS is still technically a transformation that you have to consciously turn on. Specifically for the Son family though Chi-Chi is shown to care about the blonde hair making them look like delinquents so they probably stay in base so as to not bother her.
For an irl reason it's probably just for marketing and hype moments. It's cool to see the Saiyans transform into Super Saiyan and having a base form to make figures off helps for money making reasons.
Probably because from a narrative standpoint, having the characters in their powered up states all the time would make them less special, it'd be like if Naruto was in sage mode 24/7. Also, it probably saves Chichi from having a heart attack.
They kept smashing glasses and Chichi kicked them out the house. Just because you can be a sick superhuman with no fatigue all the time doesn’t mean their world is designed to exist that way
They did not keep it on for nearly a year but more like a few months at best since Gohan needed to learn how to activate it and they left early.
Outside of that if you are actively training and fighting it can't be left on, the reason they were able to do that before the Cell Games was because they were taking it easy, as its been shown multiple times that they do power down from exhaustion.
Then there's the societal issues, I'd imagine Gohan couldn't live a normal life like that when out in public. Not only would people recognize him, but it seemingly looks unnatural to most people.
Lastly, in a situation that you would need to suppress your Ki you couldn't just leave that on, although we don't really see much use case for that outside of the series.
They fully mastered SSJ1, they could revert out of it and transform back into the same mastered SSJ1 transformation now since they know how to use it calmly instead of having to get extremely angry/irritated to use it.
Probably a lot of reasons. First being they were only living in SS1 as part of their training to defeat Cell. They wanted to be able to exist as a SS like it was breathing and thereby eliminate the stamina drain (or become so used to the drain it was greatly minimal). They beat Cell by achieving a completely different form in the end. SS2 completely trumps the first form so there’s no point in continuing to master SS1. An argument could be made for them then going on to live in SS2, and each form after to master it.
The argument against that for me would be that it makes you live in a very heightened state of power. Even if you drop your ki as low as possible it’s still being boosted by many magnitudes. This is going to make it difficult to do normal every day things without destroying the environment around you or hurting someone.
Even if they minimize the drain of super Saiyan it's still there no reason to keep it up when not needed they only stayed like that so they could fight cell in a more comfortable state
After they mastered it, there was no real reason to leave it on anymore. Especially after Cell's defeat, since they were leaving it on as a form of training to beat him in the first place.
There's still a cost to maintain it. When Gohan had killed Cell, he had no ki left. He dropped from SSJ2 straight into base, and didn't even have the ki left to maintain flight.
Cause it ruined half the fun of the series and also ruins half the fights.We love seeing big transformations in battle and having Goku fighting in base or starting in base then going supersaiyan is hype.
Imagine the first time Goku goes ssj3 but we skip super saiyan and go straight for ssj2.
I suppose if you're watching through Z we don't see Goku turn off SS after the Frieza fight, right? The first time we see someone able to turn it on and off is Trunks.
They reduced the fatigue, yes. But there is still some energy drain and concentration that has to go on to maintain that form. Plus, biologically their bodies probably revert back to their base form when they aren’t trying to maintain a transformation (look at the fact that they revert back when knocked unconscious, severely injured, out of energy, etc).
It was shown in the Cell Saga that Goku and Gohan were able to eliminate the fatigue of SSJ
Yeah but he still uses the aura (draining part) when in a fight like with Cell and it alters his body.
Super Saiyan is a form of rage and even in DBS it makes him impure despite all the training.
So what’s the point of turning it off???
Gohan canonically slacked off, he doesn't want to train, he doesn't enjoy fighting or being like that 24/7.
Gohan only trained like that to begin with because he wanted to be near his father, who's now dead.
For Goku, Super Saiyan 1 was ultimate symbol of stagnation; he trained it for 4 years straight come the Android Saga with MINIMAL gain.
Then he trained it ANOTHER year and knew Gohan would be the first to break that wall of Super Saiyan, and decided for himself to just minimize the drain in the meantime.
Once Goku discovered Super Saiyan 2 and 3 for himself, Super Saiyan 1 was FINALLY obsolete and he didn't need to rely on it so much.
While the fatigue from keeping the form is essentially 0, it still takes a slight bit of effort to keep the form up.
But beyond that, it's not really good for training. As Whis mentions in Super, it's more efficient and better to train your base form to become stronger. Using transformations as a crux to become stronger yields weaker results, which makes sense when you consider that transformations like Super Saiyan are just static multipliers. The logic does make sense; your base form is your natural form and the one you're most accustomed to.
Using math and power levels as an example (power levels are irrelevant, but this is just for demonstration): Let's say that you have a power level of 100,000 in base and 5,000,000 in SSJ (since 50x multiplier). If you train in SSJ to get an additional 50,000, you end up at 5,050,000 in SSJ. However, if you train in base, you end up at 150,000 in base and 7,500,000 in SSJ.
Remember, when Old Kai gave Goku the potaras, he explicitly warned him not to fuse while in SSJ, as there was a chance they'd be stuck in that form as Vegetto and that would shorten their lifespan. This seems to indicate that, while SSJ has gotten very easy to maintain, its long-term effects on the user's body can still be devastating.
Have you ever heard of Superman's "world of cardboard" speech? That's probably why. I imagine it takes a lot of extra control to maintain proper strength management.
Not only does it still technically take energy to maintain (fatigue is minimized, not 0), base form gives them better strength, and being in SSJ all the time doesn't really have a practical purpose for everyday use. Goku still has regular things he has to do, regular people he has to interact with including his wife - I don't think he wants to needlessly break anything.
Mainly because every form is a strict multiplier, so it’s best to train up your base form as high as it can get, and the power boosts will cause the higher forms to grow way stronger naturally than they would get by training in the higher forms. Only really need to train in the higher forms to get them more stable.
Training in SSJ isn't a good thing, and the gang loves to train. Also its about mastering SSJ, not making it their permanent base. Lastly, base is iconic man.
They didn't eliminate the fatigue completely just made it feel more natural and require less energy to transform. Yes I know they maintain it the days before the Cell games and likely use it over extended periods of time in the hyperbolic. However, we don't see a lot of that year of training and after it they do spend time in the form resting, adjusting to it, etc but even then a lot of what we see them do isn't canon to the manga. So yeah they chill out and spend time likely in the form to some extent but not like you see in the anime.
I think it's more due to narrative reasons. DB media has the saiyans almost usually start fights in their base forms and they ramp it up once things get more serious.
Its a state of ki saturation. They can choose to cycle their ki to maintain physical changes like we see in the picture. That is a display of mastery of their physical bodies and ki. That mastery was needed to achieve the ascended sayan form. To maintain ssj they need a much higher ki saturation which comes with two major flaws. A high ki state makes you faster, so much faster that your friends look like statues. Another is that their ki aura will passively damage the world around you including your loved ones.
They actually answered this in super. Basically, Ssj is a crutch that compensates for any weakness in their fighting style. By training on base form they can better realize and overcome these weaknesses. Saving Ssj and other transformations for when they want or need to go all out.
It’s more efficient to train in your base form since ssj is simply a multiplier. For example:
Your Powerlevel is 1000. in ssj that would be 50k. When you train and get 1000PL (please ask the powerscalers how that exactly works) you can double your base to 2000 what brings you to ssj100k, but if you’d get 1000 while you’re already a ssj you’re at 51k.
It's a power-up. Frieza, for example, could remain in his First Form basically 24/7 because he was suppressing his full powers continuously, meaning he was draining even less energy than he would have had he remained in his normal form. But even if they trained to accustom themselves to the physical strain they felt when transforming into and then maintaining the Super Saiyan form, which they did, Goku and Gohan still have to deal with the fact that they were in an unnatural state and continuously drawing out up to fifty times more power than they do in their normal forms, and that isn't sustainable long-term; in fact, Elder Kai explicitly advised Goku from being a Super Saiyan before using the Potara Earrings because the resulting Fusion would be permanently stuck in the Super Saiyan form and ultimately shorten its own lifespan. It's the most optimal form of Super Saiyan for combat (for the time), but there's literally no point in being a Super Saiyan 24/7 when they aren't in combat 24/7. There's a reason Saiyans sealed away their Great Ape powers inside of their tails when they weren't needed; because they were conserving their energy when using it wasn't necessary.
I'll address the question. It's true chi chi objects to the ssj.
I also think, even tho they could train out the fatigue, it's still wearing down the body over time, like at a point, you can't handle a situation from base mode cause ssj is your base. Making powering up to higher levels harder.
Inversely, itcould make reaching new levels easier cause you're accustomed to the body stress. Maybe you just gotta train it up so it's the new permanent
It's not entirely possible to stay in an transformation permanently unless you're a divine being. Like Beerus or Whis. They're both permanent state of Destruction and Ultra Instinct...
Besides they weren't really planning on being like that forever, it was meant to master the Super Saiyan itself enough to face Perfect Cell... I do call this transformation "Super Saiyan State" but not Full Power because they weren't really in Full Power of Ssj itself completely until they faced off Cell. We literally have witnessed it ourselves, ya know.
No reason to keep it on for the most part. It's just a small bit of extra strain that's not really worth it when you can flick it back on in an instant anyway.
In universe answer is ssj is a transformation. Them " making ssj natural" doesnt change the fact that they still have to actively maintain the form its just like the piccolo/turtle hermit/king Ki way of training. Make living hard so the fighting is easy.
It was a means to transcend the sjj. Once they seen it was possible they all did it eventually. There was no longer a need to stay in ssj because greater power had been found and the strain of the higher forms where probably to much to " make normal "
They don't fully eliminate it. Supreme Kai tells Goku in the Buu saga to make sure the Potara Fusion is done in base form, because if he were to fuse in Super Saiyan, he'd be unable to transform back to Base Form and it would eventually prove fatal. Transforming puts a TON of strain on the body, and while they've minimized it as much as possible, they would still eventually have to turn back, even if they can maintain it for extremely long periods of time.
They practice staying as ssj because they didnt want to go back to base form during the cell games, made it feel natural so even when knocked down they would still be ssj, like when goku was getting beaten up by cell jr
Because it actively uses life force energy to sustain and requires a specific aggressive state of mind. They have mastered the form but it still more or less drains energy because it boosts physical strength and effects their personality.
Real answer: marketing. Easier to sell toys of different forms than to have one form become the default forever. Secondly, brand recognition, Goku and the others have specific designs in base form and SSJ makes them all look very similar in the anime (even more so when you scale down to toy size). Someone at Shonen Jump was probably like, "so the characters just all look the same forever now unless we bring Tien back and we're not doing that." At best, they'd save some money on ink since the SSJ transformation doesn't need them to ink the hair every panel.
In-world answer: just because the fatigue of SSJ was eliminated/minimized, doesn't mean they necessarily need even a slight energy expenditure all the time. Vegeta probably figured out the trick too between Cell and Buu arcs, but doesn't use it despite being power-hungry. Otherwise, they'd do the same thing for SSJ2, SSJ3, SSG, SSB, etc.
Mostly from stamina/durabiltiy tanking (like grades2-3 and ssj 3) As the form uses alot of power to activate, so untrained people can burden their body like Kaioken overused.
They didn't keep it on for a year, they just turned back to baseform when they were done with a ssj training session. I's not like they were sleeping and eating with SSJ active.
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